Editing June Crain Interview

PREFACE
This is the transcript of the interview that I held with June Crain1 in her home at 896 Catala Ave. SE Ocean Shores, WA 98569 on June 27, 1997. At the time of this interview June was 72 years old and she had outlived two husbands and survived two bouts with cancer.

The tape of the interview was transcribed by Mary Sullivan, who was working as a secretary in the Grays Harbor County Prosecutor’s Office. She completed this transcription on her own time. It was completed within two weeks of the time of the interview.
Right after we conducted this interview June contacted her attorney, Scott Sage, and he prepared a notarized affidavit for her, granting me the rights to her life story. She did this without my knowledge.
June Kaba was a well-known philanthropist in her community of Ocean Shores, Washington. She led a charity campaign that succeeded in raising funds to build a new library. I met her in 1993 after giving a UFO lecture in the new Ocean Shores Library, a bright modern building that existed largely due to her efforts.

She approached me afterwards and told me that I was right — that our Government does know much more than it ever says publicly about UFO’s. I asked her how she knew this. She said, “Because I worked there.” I asked her for details and she said, “I can’t tell you — they’ll come and arrest me.” I asked her to remember me if she ever changed her mind.

Four years later I learned that she had made inquiries about me. She decided that I could be trusted not to arrest her once I knew her story, even though I was a detective sergeant for the Aberdeen Police Department at the time.

She was most proud of her work for the US Government as a civilian employee at Wright- Patterson Air Force Base from 1942 to 1952. Her pride and loyalty were the causes of her dilemma—She was bound by her loyalty oath and yet she had no tolerance for deception by anyone, more especially any official, at any level of government, as some questionable local politicians had learned to their regret.

June was angry because of what she perceived as a great hypocrisy, that on the one hand the existence of UFO’s is officially denied, and yet in classified laboratories where she worked, she overheard scientists and engineers discussing artifacts and bodies from recovered, crashed UFO’s. She believed that the public deserves to be told the truth.
1 June’s maiden name was Crain; her married names were Cubbage and finally Kaba. She was known in the community of Ocean Shores as June Kaba.
    
In 1990 she contacted UFO researcher Kevin Randle, but she was afraid to be identified by name. Part of her story was used in Kevin Randle’s book, The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell under a pseudonym, but she would not make further disclosures.
In 1997 the Air Force media campaign to discredit the Roswell Crash right before the celebration of the 50th anniversary, seriously backfired in the case of June Crain. I had not heard from her in four years, but June did not waste any time. She told me that she had heard enough on CNN about Roswell—Case Closed, and that it was a “damned lie.” In that respect I owe the disinformation agents a great debt of gratitude for leading me to a rare friendship, and giving me glimpses of what I believe are their most jealously guarded secrets.

June Crain worked hard all of her life – she started working at Wright Field in 1942 when she was 17 years old. The papers she gave me, now augmented and verified by the National Archives, show a steady series of promotions leading to her last position as a Clerk- Stenographer in 1951 even though her employment at WPAFB was interrupted by pregnancy and illness.
June Crain became partially blind after a life-threatening illness in 1954. In 1957 her first husband was killed by a drunk driver on the 14th anniversary of their marriage in front of their home in Portland, Oregon. She almost lost her son and only child in the same accident.

Despite her visual disability she learned carpentry and she was able to remodel and sell 15 homes in the Portland area. She was proud that she had carried mortgages for people who otherwise would not have qualified to purchase a home. She succeeded well enough to eventually help her son graduate from Stanford University.
Her physical strength remained even after two bouts with cancer. Whenever I visited June’s home, I found her gardening or remodeling the interior woodwork of her home. She was physically active until cancer incapacitated her for the last time. On August 23, 1998 she died.

What is most important about June Crain’s story? First, her government service file proves that she did work in various facilities at Wright- Patterson AFB where classified research was conducted and that she did handle sensitive material as part of her duties. Second, she did not publicize her experiences for money or recognition.
Finally, her story did not change over time. She would not add or recant any part of it. What she told Kevin Randle in 1990 was consistent with what she told me seven years later. During our conversations she could have and I believe, would have, embellished or exaggerated her exposure to UFO-related information, if she was delusional from illness or age, or deliberately deceptive.

I also believe that when she spoke to me, she knew that she did not have many more years, so it was important for her to tell her story to the best of her ability. When the story broke called Roswell-Case Closed, she decided that it was possibly her last opportunity to reveal what she knew. Although her statements are not a classic dying declaration, there is not a courtroom in the world that does not lend additional credibility to statements made when the person believes that they are approaching death.
In retrospect I wish that I had spent more evenings at her dining room table looking out at the many flowers and trees that had thrived under her hand. We watched raccoons and possums come and go — she had named them and she fed them all. We swapped life stories. I believe that she needed a friend in her life at that point as much as I did.
I am sure that anyone who reads this will have a million follow-up questions they would like to have answered. I know that I do. I also know that I had to respect June as a person whose health had been impaired by age and cancer. Interviewing any elderly person must be done cautiously so that the process is not an ordeal.
But much more importantly, I respected June Crain as a woman who had faced tragedy, adversity, and illness with determination and a commitment to help others in too many ways to be described in this short testimony.
No doubt her revelations will be condemned by the debunkers and the special agents in investigator’s clothing because she may have erred on small details or because her memory wasn’t perfect after 50 years. The facts remain — the documents she gave me, now verified by the National Archives, speak for themselves. Given her position, she did work in the right place at the right time for the events described to have occurred as she described them.
As a retired police sergeant and former military police investigator with a total of 24 years experience, I found her sincere and credible.
As her friend, I was grateful to have known someone with her courage and strength of spirit. Telling her story is what I promised her. If in so doing, I am helping to end an enormous deception by our own government, then it is an honor.
I have reviewed this transcript in its entirety. It is a true and accurate representation of our conversation on that day.
James E. Clarkson
3

   MAJESTIC DOCUMENTS COMMENTARY
SOURCE: THE MAJESTIC DOCUMENTS EDITED BY DR. ROBERT M. WOOD & RYAN S.
WOOD, WOOD & WOOD ENTERPRISES, REDWOOD CITY, CA, 19982
PAGE
           DOCUMENT NAME
COMMENTS
          24
Air Accident Report on “Flying Disc” (16 Jul 47)
Signature of Lt. Gen. Nathan Twining of the Air Materiel Command, Wright Field, Ohio. This establishes a link between Crash Retrieval investigations in New Mexico and June Crain’s place of employment. Many of June’s papers specifically show the same designation of “HQ, AMC, Wright Field.”
       25
Ibid.
Dr. Theodore von Karman is mentioned in paragraph 1. as head of the Army Air Forces Scientific Advisory Board created by “Hap” Arnold (See Transcript page 27.)
       25
Ibid.
“Remains of possible second disc” mentioned which may relate to June’s assertion that there were at least three crashes of UFO’s investigated.
       26
Ibid.
Dr. Wernher von Braun is mentioned along with Dr. Theodore von Karman in paragraph (3). This may relate to June’s assertion that she took dictation from Dr. von Braun (See Transcript page 6.)
       35
INTERPLANETARY PHENOMENON UNIT SURVEY
Two crash sites are described, LZ-1 and LZ-2.
Further evidence of three or more Crash Retrieval Events.
       37
Ibid.
Note the “select scientists” mentioned as Project PAPERCLIP specialists: Wernher von Braun (Fort Bliss), Dr. Ernst Steinhoff (AMC), and Hubertus (Aeromedical Lab, Randolph Field).
   37 Ibid. Paragraph 7. Refers to bodies and structural debris taken to AMC, Wright Field.
   37
   Ibid.
   Paragraph 8. Directly describes Lt. Gen. Nathan Twining inspecting the sites and debris and then returning to Wright Field.
   42
 MEMORANDUM FOR THE MILITARY ASSESSMENT OF THE JOINT INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE
19 SEP 1947
 Paragraph 4. Mentions scientists at the Air Forces Research and Development Center, Wright Field, are utilizing their test facilities and a new biological laboratory to study recovered “Disc-like Aircraft.” June made reference to the Aero-Med lab as being the high-security location where the bodies were taken. (See Transcript page 28.)
   67
   PROJECT WHITE HOT INTELLIGENCE ESTIMATE
PART I.
   While describing LZ-1, reference is made to the opinion of AMC that the craft was made “to operate outside of the earth’s atmosphere.”
  2 This list is not meant to be definitive. These are selected items of information from the MJ Documents that appear to relate to aspects of the June Crain Transcript.
4

      PAGE
  DOCUMENT NAME
COMMENTS
        75
Ibid. PART III.
AMC is the first of 11 research organizations listed as having arrived at the conclusion that the crash artifacts are of ET origin.
           107 MAJESTIC TWELVE PROJECT ATIC interrogation reports are mentioned in Section A. 1ST ANNUAL REPORT Refers to Air Technical Intelligence Center at WPAFB.
   111
  Ibid.
  Section P. Mentions policy of “strict denial.” June’s description of the Too Hot memo procedure after the morning disclosure that bodies and pieces of wreckage had been flown in from NM would fit into this policy. It should be noted that June emphasized that all of the personnel where the disclosure was made had security clearances.
   112
  Ibid. ANNEX A
  Includes descriptions of three impact points and two recovered craft with bodies as well as descriptions of the mysterious deaths of the technicians which would be further justification for very tight security measures.
   115
   Ibid. ANNEX B
   Describes Crash Recovery Event from the El Indio Guerrero area on Dec. 06, 1950. This would result in at least three crashes by the time that June returned to work at WPAFB in 1951.

'''Jim:''' This is a tape recording and it is being made on June 27, 1997 and it is about 10:30 in the evening. We are discussing something that we have discussed before. In any event I hope that the tape doesn’t bother you?

'''Int:'''3 No.

'''Jim:''' Okay. Good.

'''Int:''' I told you I don’t care about the thing, just another person listening.

'''Jim:''' I got you. Could we go back over again, some of your background? Like where you worked, because I think that way it would make more sense.

'''Int:''' Yeah, I worked at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and I worked there three different times.4 The first time I worked in the supply unit and in that period I caught a spy. That was the main point of that; it wasn’t a long period of time that I worked. And the second time was a supply unit and it was a photo photographic unit. And I saw all the photographs of the everything that come... that was in the gun sightings, GSAP cameras and we had files and files and files of those camera sightings, you know gun sightings and point cameras. It, ah, the shootings and all the different during the war.

'''Jim:''' This is?

'''Int:''' And that would be...

'''Jim:''' Are these from fighter planes or from bombers, or from both?

'''Int:''' Both, both.

'''Jim:''' Both, both. Okay. So this is from Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. '''Int:''' Wright -Patterson Air Force Base Dayton, Ohio.

3 I did not include her name in this transcription at the time that it was completed because she was afraid of reprisals for violating her security oath. I have since obtained copies of her records from the National Archives and it turns out that one of the last documents she signed was a reminder to abide by her security oath.

4 From her papers and those obtained from the National Archives, these dates are as follows: July 03, 1942 to June 30, 1943 — Resigned due to Pregnancy. May 13, 1948 to July 21, 1948 — Resigned due to Ill Health. March 08, 1951 to May 02, 1952 — Moved away, although June told me that her husband was jealous of her success and told her to resign. She was steadily promoted , starting as an Under Clerk-Typist and ending as a Clerk-Stenographer.

'''Jim:''' Okay, just to go back over that you mentioned. I think this kind of would help to explain the kind of security work and security clearance you had. You mentioned a spy?

'''Int:''' Yes.

'''Jim:''' You caught a spy?

'''Int:''' Yes.

'''Jim:''' And what were you doing at that time?

'''Int:''' I was classified as a typist, and in those days you were classed as a typist no matter what you did because that was the way it went. And uh But I had extra intelligence and um also a great deal of curiosity and I was very meticulous about every thing I did and I was top speed secretary taking shorthand, ask them, and so I always got the plums with the jobs, I mean, when they had a job that they wanted to be perfect they gave it to me. And my I had top secret clearance and later then finally they gave me ‘Q’ what they called ‘Q’ clearance which is what at that time was the highest clearance that you could have, because I was in very sensitive, doing very sensitive work.5

During that period it was just curiosity and when I got the job in ‘48 like I told, Jim, I went to the back door I’d already established a reputation, and so when I wanted to go to work I called somebody and they took me in and then when I got into the personnel office the requisition was waiting there for me and so that’s the way the jobs went. And then, but the exciting part is when I quit in ‘48 the ‘48 period I had to quit because I suffered heat exhaustion and the building was air material command6 building was very poorly ventilated and I suffered heat exhaustion and I had either to get out or die. And so they released me. And then when I wanted to go back to work I wanted to go back to work and so I did it the same way. I called somebody; they put in a requisition for me and that is when I went into the parachute branch and ah that’s ah the parachute branch handled any project, any and every project that had a parachute connected to it. Now the Aerobee rocket7 was one of those things, the D-4 bulldozer drops was one of those things, the ejection seat was one of those things.

'''Jim:''' Can I ask, D-4 dozer. Are you talking about dropping a bulldozer with a parachute?

5 Her records confirm a SECRET Clearance. I am not certain whether or not I received a complete copy of her file or not from the National Archives.

6 Air Materiel Command (AMC) which appears frequently in personnel records and within the Majestic Documents.

7 Early atmospheric sounding rocket.

'''Int:''' Yeah, right.

'''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' Four (4) parachutes. And I had to know how to shoot a rifle when I was doing that project because we had to shoot one of the parachutes down to bring it down so it wouldn’t rip. The wind would catch it and it would go into a populated area cause we were doing it over the city of Dayton, right near the city, and so we had we all we were armed when we went out to the drop zone. And uh there was a spot that we were to hit. And that would break that parachute loose. And then the dossier wouldn’t have enough lift and so it would just drop straight down and uh it well of course we dropped a few in the wrong spot. And they finally said no more drops; no more drops from Wright - Patterson Air Force Base. Because we dropped it on a general’s house.

'''Jim:''' That’s good.

'''Int:''' She was in the back yard hanging up her clothes on the line.

'''Jim:''' I bet that was an attention–getter.

'''Int:''' You betcha!

'''Jim:''' What was the third kind of parachute? You said Aerobee rocket, the D-4 dozer and the... 

'''Int:''' The ejection seat.

'''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' And there were probably other ones that I should tell you about but I can’t recall them. In ‘51 this is where I got angry when I read this newspaper thing they talked about all these dummies they dropped and everything. In ‘51 they weren’t working about on personnel chutes, they were working on the Aerobee rocket that’s when we was working on the beginning of the space program and that is when I took the dictation to start this space program I took it from Dr. Wernher von Braun.8 I spent three (3) hours interviewing him. I went back to the lab. I wrote the report and this officer, a lieutenant colonel came to pick me up because they gave the job to me because none of the other

8 This is an important and perplexing statement by June. I have been unable thus far to prove or disprove. She told me that she could find no such reference in a biography titled Wernher von Braun by Erik Bergaust, National Space Institute, Washington, DC, 1976. I could not find any reference either in this or other biographies. June gave me an obituary from the Oregonian from June 18, 1977; Dr. von Braun passed away on June 16, 1977. She wrote question marks next to the details of his residence and assignments. When she gave me the article she pointed out that there was no mention that he had ever been at WPAFB, but she was adamant she had taken dictation from him for an important report related to obtaining funding for rocket research.
girls would do it. They didn’t have the speed to take dictation and they were afraid with his German accent they may not understand the words, highly technical, highly technical words, and I had the intelligence to do it and so they said you are going to do it. And so I went and took the dictation for three (3) hours and asking certain questions to keep everything clear. Went back to the lab and the officer told me “ you can’t go home; you are going to finish this before you go home tonight. Cause it is highly sensitive.” And so I stayed there until three (3) in the morning writing that up and he didn’t. And the thing the biggest thing the most rewarding words I’ve ever had said in my life is, when I was through doing to job was he said “June, if we get this $600.000 and this space program, starts you will have had your moment in history.” And to me, I have never forgotten that!

'''Jim:''' Can I just go over one point? Now when you say Dr Von Braun you are referring to Dr. Wernher von Braun...

'''Int:''' Right...

'''Jim:''' Who was brought over here to the United States... 

'''Int:''' On Project Paperclip...

'''Jim:''' On Project Paperclip...

'''Int:''' And he was a prisoner.

'''Jim:''' Exactly...

'''Int:''' And then later he signed a contract to work for the government. And do you know that in his biography he never mentions that he was ever at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base but he was there for quite a long time. He was living in compound with the rest of the Germans. There was this eight- (8) foot fence around it, and they had their little houses, they had this temporary housing and all those scientists that we had stolen we had
stolen... 

'''Jim:''' Uh-huh.

'''Int:''' Cause we went in the night before Russia and we was going to go in with Russia and divide it up but we didn’t we went in ahead of time and stole these guys. And uh anyone that wanted to go they went to America. And uh they said they’d get their freedom later and all that cause they were still prisoners’ there and he was too. And then the men eventually gave them contracts and they contracted to work for the government for I think it was either three (3) or five (5) years and then they would have their, they would become American citizens. And I have those names. And you know it’s a very strange thing; in his autobiography, he gave a whole list of all these German scientists. You know he didn’t name a one of them that was working with me, not a one of them, not a one.

'''Jim:''' And he also didn’t mention that he was at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base?

'''Int:''' No. Uh-huh. You read it now. Sharp has got the book cause I wanted I wanted to read it, to see if you know cause I bought the book. And cause I was there and he never mentioned it. And then the list of German scientists he put in there is not a one of them, none of the ones I knew is listed in there. And Mr. Knacke is the, he was called Mr. Knacke; he had no title. He wrote the bible for parachutes. And we stole him out of Germany and he was even kept very secret because his life was in danger.9

'''Jim:''' From whom?

'''Int:''' The Germans.

'''Jim:''' Even after World War II?

'''Int:''' Even after World War II. Cause he was a very valuable person he had it all up here in his head.

'''Jim:''' Do you think...

'''Int:''' The parachutes.

'''Jim:''' Were they? Was any other place in the United States that you know of experimenting with parachutes?

'''Int:''' No! Not that I know of that’s where it was at Wright at Wright-Patterson. You see at that time Wright-Patterson Air Force Base was an experimental place when they had the, you know, bomb- ever heard of the Boeing bomber?

'''Jim:''' Yes.

'''Int:''' There was six of them the original ones were six they brought them all to Wright-
Patterson Air Force Base and I personally as a kid watched every one fall out of the sky.

9 In this instance, June’s recollection was accurate. I am grateful to James Westwood, who located and copied what would be termed by most people, a very obscure and technical research paper titled “High- Altitude Parachute Recovery” by T. W. Knacke, published as part of symposium proceedings from PHYSICS and MEDICINE of the Upper Atmosphere–A Study of the Aeropause, University of New Mexico Press, Albuquerque 1952, pgs. 447-456. Further, in the bibliography for this paper, her refers to two other technical papers that he wrote about parachutes that are described as Air Material Command Memorandum Reports.

And one of them burnt up and I heard the men screaming inside just it burnt up. When it came down on its belly it locked the doors and they couldn’t get out they were just screaming in there. And that I would say it was less than well less than from here to the club down here. And to think that somebody could scream that loud you wouldn’t think, of course you’re a cop you know how sound goes, but uh it was terrible. They were our pilots, and that’s why the Boeing bomber never was excepted because they all crashed they were well they were a very unwieldy airplane. But they never got off, hardly got off the ground. They just went off and the wings would fall of them or something would happen to them. I mean one day I was out in the back and they took off, cause we knew when they were going to take off see as kids we they we had friends that worked their you know we knew when they were going to be testing. And so we always watched for that because they were so huge in that in those days. And uh that one day that one plane was no farther from here to three hundred (300) feet from me when that wing fell off.
He took off like this there was a little rise there was a little hill he went up like this and started raising it and that wing went boom it just fell off.

'''Jim:''' Did they get out okay? 

'''Int:''' Yeah, they all got out. 

'''Jim:''' Well that’s good.

'''Int:''' But uh only one of the guys actually burnt up alive in it they all burnt up. But there was in, but all the testing of all your equipment, all your military equipment it was basically started right at Wright-Patterson because that’s what Wright-Patterson air force was, was an experimental center.

'''Jim:''' Now, what little I know about the place, I’ve always heard talked about this Foreign Technology Division. Does that ring a bell?

'''Int:''' No.
'''Jim:''' Maybe that’s later.

'''Int:''' That might have been Redstone Arsenal. That could have been it.

'''Jim:''' Okay. I thought it was Wright-Patterson, but I don’t know when they started calling it that.

'''Int:''' But see there was there was; they changed the name so many times. One time they call it WADC Wright Air Development Center.10 And they changed it; they went back to they moved the experimental part to Baltimore and that became something else then. It became NASA. It a splintered. It got splinters off of it and then your NASA came up, and so it just kept growing and growing and growing. But in the beginning it wasn’t big it wasn’t a big place. Because you know before the war there wasn’t a lot of money spent on experiments. And uh but it was interesting growing up see. My our my our house was the lot was fifty feet (50’) by one hundred feet (100’) and our lot was here and there was another fifty feet (50’) by one hundred (100’) side of it and there was the fence Wright-Patterson air force fence. Well the night that we got the word that Japan they immediately brought soldiers in bombed us and that entire perimeter of Wright-Patterson air force base was walked. I mean there was a soldier, soldier, soldier, all the way along, and that’s where I met my husband. He was in the military police. And uh until they could get a fence built and when they got the fence built they patrolled it by car you know jeeps... And so I was always right there and then in knew people that worked on the base there for various reasons, because it was just one of the industries there.

'''Jim:''' You mentioned someone along this time, as I recall, you mentioned associating with engineers and people who were kind of like in a think tank?

'''Int:''' Yeah.

'''Jim:''' When was that? 

'''Int:''' Always.

'''Jim:''' Always?

'''Int:''' Always yeah, because those men lived... Or... Experimenting on the future they were, that’s all you can say they were —I mean they think anybody, a normal person would never think that way because you’re used to certain things and certain rules apply and nobody has ever done that any differently, but these guys whenever they were doing with that experimental work their mind expands into what could be what maybe happened, you know, it was always what, let’s see is there another road out here? And they are very interesting people they really are, and some of them, they’re sort of nutty. Really.

'''Jim:''' Let’s just say if there were crashes... 

'''Int:''' Yeah.

10 When June made a suggestion for improved security to guard the combinations of safes used for the storage of classified documents, the stationery for the letter of commendation was from the WADC.

'''Jim:''' Or contacts with something that didn’t come from the earth. Would they have been privy to that kind of information?

'''Int:''' Definitely.

'''Jim:''' Okay, when... When was the first time in your experience there that you bumped into or
heard of anything related to unidentified flying objects?

'''Int:''' I would say the second day I went to work in 1952 or ‘51.11 

'''Jim:''' The second day?

'''Int:''' Right. Right.

'''Jim:''' What do you recall happening?

'''Int:''' Just that the fellows talking about it, when they’re sitting around talking about it. When we go to the moon, when we go up to the moon, what’s going to be there? What are those people; what are they going to look like? Are they going to look like big ants or are they going to look like us, or what are they going to look like? I mean this was their curious thinking. But it was always in their thoughts, always.

'''Jim:''' Did you ever here them say anything that wasn’t...that was not speculation, that there was something that they were talking about, something that happened, or something they knew about?

'''Int:''' Nothing other than the actual that they had seen the things that they had actually seen the UFO’s themselves, at White Sands, New Mexico. They said they were just as thick as stars. That when they were doing the Aerobee rocket test — just you read this and you’ll understand, I’ve got it right in this letter here.

'''Jim:''' And we’re talking about that they frequently saw...

'''Int:''' They frequently saw them and then they told me, and I’m positive that there was three (3) crashes. That was actually told me about three (3) different crashes.12

11 This is another of those areas where I wish that June was available for another interview, for the sake of clarifying dates in relation to her descriptions of events.

12 Perhaps the Three Crashes in question are : The 1941 crash in Missouri, the 1947 crash(es) in New Mexico, and the 1950 crash in the El Indio-Guerrero area. She also commented on other occasions that “there may have been more than three.”

'''Jim:''' So as of 1952 they knew about three (3) crashes? 

'''Int:''' Right. Right.

'''Jim:''' Of vehicles that were probably extraterrestrial?

'''Int:''' Right, right, and then the one where they brought the two (2) men into Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and put them in the ice box, uh that was, I didn’t see it because nobody was allowed to see it. See these two (2) people...but the person that brought them in he was a master sergeant, and you understand that when a military airplane takes off, there’s always an enlisted man in charge. You know that, don’t you?

'''Jim:''' I don’t know quite how that works...

'''Int:''' Okay....

'''Int:''' There is always an officer to go along with everything- everything that’s done there is an officer involved.

'''Jim:''' Right.

'''Int:''' Because he gets the credit. The underlings do the work. So when an airplane takes off, until the moment that the plane takes off the ground the military personnel, the officer, is in charge of the airplane. But the moment it is off the ground the enlisted man has charge of the airplane until she lands. And now the master sergeant, his first name was Clarence, I went to their wedding. I sent the picture of their wedding to Randle; I still can’t remember that man’s last name.13

'''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' But, he was he was in charge of that airplane. 

'''Jim:''' What kind of an airplane?

'''Int:''' Well it was a regular transport.

'''Jim:''' A transport, a military transport?

13 On April 18, 1990 (over seven years before this interview was taped!) June sent a letter to Kevin Randle. She also sent a wedding photograph which has the Master Sergeant named Clarence whose last name she was unable to remember. In his book co-authored with Donald Schmitt, THE TRUTH ABOUT THE UFO CRASH AT ROSWELL, June is identified under a pseudonym, Sarah Holcomb, on page 64. Not only did she not change her story over the course of growing seven years older and surviving serious illness, in my conversations with her, I attempted to determine (albeit in a kind way) if she would grossly deviate or exaggerate; she would do neither.

'''Int:''' Yeah, yeah.

'''Jim:''' And what was it that he said?

'''Int:''' It came in from New Mexico. He said what I brought in this morning... You read it’s in here.

'''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' I want you to read this.

'''Jim:''' I will.

'''Int:''' He said that he brought two (2) little men in.

'''Jim:''' Okay, by two (2) little men...

'''Int:''' He called them little green men. He described them as a greenish-blue.14 And they were four (4) feet tall and they were dead.

'''Jim:''' So the color could have been because they were dead? 

'''Int:''' Yeah.

'''Jim:''' Not...

'''Int:''' Yeah, but you see it could have been anything.

'''Jim:''' We’re talking about non-humans? 

'''Int:''' Non-humans. Right.

'''Jim:''' Did he say anything else about them?

'''Int:''' No, not really. Because it was only a matter of fifteen (15) minutes. We were having our coffee that morning. And so when Clarence said why he told us about this; that was his news for the day.

'''Jim:''' Is this one of those things where he’s kind of like, maybe, I’m trying to guess here, but were there like, maybe, other ladies there and he sort of like showing off or telling-

'''Int:''' No.

14 See reference in the Majestic Documents Commentary.

'''Jim:''' He wasn’t showing off?

'''Int:''' No, no, no! These guys don’t show off. 

'''Jim:''' This is a serious matter?

'''Int:''' When I’m saying engineers are sort of wacky, there is one thing to know. They’re, it’s not wackiness like you’d think a just acting like a fool, and it’s just well it’s just hard to explain. But very serious. They don’t tell lies. They don’t have jokes. They don’t do anything like that. And so when they say something they know it had better be the truth. You just don’t, you don’t lie. You get your head knocked off.

'''Jim:''' Was this master sergeant breaking security by talking about this? 

'''Int:''' No, cause we were off of security.

'''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' When you have security like that you can’t take your husband to a party...you, we all had a Christmas party. We went and there was a guard at the door and nobody but the people in the, in the, in the branch are the only ones that’s there, you couldn’t bring your husband or the wife and when you are at home you can’t talk about you job, because you got that in your head, you got security in your clearance and you keep your damn mouth shut. That’s all there is to it. And it’s a big burden because there is time you’d like to talk about your job, but you can’t. The only time you can talk is when you are with other people that have the same security as you do. And if somebody walks in from another branch and you don’t know whether he’s cleared, you shut up, because you don’t know. Loose lips cost lives. That’s, you know, you heard that.

'''Jim:''' I’ve heard that one before.

'''Int:''' You’ve heard that one before.

'''Jim:''' Now is that the same period of time that you mentioned before that someone actually showed you a piece of something?15

'''Int:''' Yes.

'''Jim:''' Was this during the same period of time?

15 In assessing this anecdote, it should be remembered the June did not know much about UFO lore. She did not, for instance, have two shelves of UFO books. Although she was a reading advocate, her visual impairment made it difficult for her. The experience of handling this odd metal made a strong impression on her and when I tried to get her to liken it to the characteristics of modern plastics and metals, she wouldn’t budge from her opinion that it just wasn’t like anything else.

'''Int:''' Yes, ‘51 ‘52.

'''Jim:''' Okay, who showed it to you?

'''Int:''' Okay it was Lieutenant Rose is the one that showed it to me, or Captain Wheeler, now, it could have been one or the other of those guys, cause they were both in personnel, personnel in ‘chutes. And uh, he walked in. And they always liked to rag me because they couldn’t figure me out. He threw it on my desk, and it was a piece, well it was a piece about...about this big...and it was...

'''Jim:''' About half of, about the size of a business card? 

'''Int:''' Yeah, about that size, and a half of this.

'''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' There, and it was bent like this. — And he says “ June, you’re good. Tear that thing apart, break that up.” And I took it and I bent it and I twisted it and I laid it back down, and it went (sound) got right back to the same shape. I got back to my desk and he said, “cut it. Cut it. Try cutting it.” I got on my desk. I got my scissors out and I snipped at it, and you know there was no way I could cut even cut that piece of metal. And it was as light as a feather. I had it in my hand and I couldn’t...I would say that it didn’t weight as much as these two (2) cards-----it wasn’t that heavy. It was so light but strong, and it was about the thickness would be about say, let’s see, there, no it would be about, it would be about that thick
'''Jim:''' So it’s fairly thick but doesn’t weigh anything?

'''Int:''' But it had no weight at all, it was like a feather. And so strong it was sort of a grayish, gun metal type of color, and you could see that on the inside that there was a different that there was coating on the outside of it. Both sides were the same and the insides seemed to have a sort of a lead colored, light lead colored center to it.
'''Jim:''' What were the edges of this like? Were they even or was it like part of something else?

'''Int:''' It was even. 

'''Jim:''' Was even.

'''Int:''' All even and I said “what is it?’ He said, “it’s a piece of a space ship.” When I, you know got through with it and I couldn’t do nothing with it I said, “well, what is it?” And he says, “piece of a space ship.” He said “I just came back from New Mexico and I brought it back with me.” See, he had no business having anything to do with it in the first place, but he...

'''Jim:''' So he was breaking security?

'''Int:''' Yes, he was. Definitely.

'''Jim:''' Obviously in forty (40) years, and even in my lifetime being forty-five (45), I’ve seen improvements and changes in materials and plastics and metal. Have you ever...

'''Int:''' I’ve never seen...

'''Jim:''' Is it like anything you have ever seen since?

'''Int:''' I never...I always look at things, metal things and I still have that curiosity, cause it still bothers me and I have yet to see anything that would have those properties and looks like that. And so light!

'''Jim:''' Was it slightly in a “v” shape? Did I understand right? 

'''Int:''' It was sorta...

'''Jim:''' In a very slight or liked curved?

'''Int:''' Sort of a curve. It was about...

'''Jim:''' And it was formed, like it was formed that way?

'''Int:''' Yeah. And it would uh, I don’t know...and it was practically indestructible. 

'''Jim:''' Did he say anything...

'''Int:''' I even took the edge of the scissors and laid it on...you know...

'''Jim:''' Uh-hum...

'''Int:''' Took the scissors like this, and I whacked it like this, and I couldn’t even make a dent in it. Just nothen. Cause he said tear it up, so I tried every thing I could to tear it up, and I couldn’t tear it up. I couldn’t make a dent in it; I couldn’t make a mark on it.

'''Jim:''' Now.... 

'''Int:''' '''Jim:'''
'''Int:''' '''Jim:'''
'''Int:'''
'''Jim:''' '''Int:'''
Couldn’t even make a mark on it.
Now, that’s kind of an odd thing even in the place where you are for somebody to say that this came from a space ship.
Well, he’s got the same clearance I got.

Right. I guess what I’m saying is that somebody was saying, maybe he was joking.
No. No—he wouldn’t have joked. Uh-uh, there was another man standing right there he would never he wouldn’t have been never would he have been joking no way would he have been joking. Those guys don’t joke, they don’t, they don’t really joke, they uh, actually they hardly have a sense of humor. But they have this intense, uh, curiosity about things and some of the stuff is so damn far out that I call it weird. It’s just, you would have to be around a group of them to know em.

Well, what else did you ever hear ‘em talk about related to these things?

Well, the’ that quite often they would be talking about, well okay, if we go to the if they come on our earth, what’s going to happen to us? And they said well in the first place the reason they don’t land is because they know we are so war like that the we’ll probably the first thing we would try to do is execute ‘em. Which would be fine logic. And uh
then they said probably they have been observing us for hundreds of years and we are such a war like people, we are terrible, you know, the only thing we don’t do to each other is that we don’t eat each other. We challenge each other; we maim each other. And everything...

Now that depends in what part of the world you are in.
Right. And uh so they think that is one of the reasons, that um... One of reasons they don’t land, but uh, then they also said they think the reason that became very noticeable was when we detonated the atomic bomb, cause that was when it really got heavy, that was when they got hot and heavy with sightings. And then when we started taking our rockets up it got heavier and it’s been heavier ever since. Because they probably don’t want us transporting our war like life to any place else. And I would bet you that they would prevent us from going to any other planet. Until we learn to live with each other. I mean, that’s my opinion.
Did, did you ever hear of any other discussions amongst these uh people, engineers and what not, about the crashes or the...
No. Just...

'''Jim:''' 

'''Int:'''

'''Jim :''' 

'''Int:'''

'''Jim:''' The workings or...

'''Int:''' It was just, it was just a matter of fact. I mean they talked like everybody knew it, that they were crashing. 16

'''Jim:''' You mentioned earlier that, before I started the tape recording, that uh they were
discussing propulsion systems.

'''Int:''' Yes. Because they said there was no doubt about there being a u an ah you know a flying saucer, whatever you want to call them, there is no doubt about that. The question the big question is what is their propulsion system. Because it is almost impossible for a vehicle to maneuver the way they do. A human being would be killed immediately if you were
in a craft and you were going straight ahead, say you were going north, and then suddenly you went south, to the east immediately, you went that fast going a hundred thousand (100,000) miles an hour...

'''Jim:''' The inertia would kill you.

'''Int:''' The changes in g force would kill you. And there’s just no way a man could survive it. So those vehicles, there’s no way they can be uh manned by uh ordinary humans. They can’t be. And there is, it has to be an intelligent being to operate those things, and to be in and alive in them.

'''Jim:''' So they’re talking about, those, these people are talking about, a physical objects... 

'''Int:''' Yeah..

'''Jim:''' Space craft...

'''Int:''' Right.

'''Jim:''' Unknown origin? '''Int:''' Right.

'''Jim:''' Not from this earth.

'''Int:''' Right, and their theories and religion and and why they don’t land. This was one of the big questions. Why they don’t land. And their theory was contention was most of them had the same idea, is that we are to war like. We want to kill everything, and they don’t

16 June emphasized that the reality of UFO’s, crashed and otherwise, was common knowledge amongst the scientists and engineers where she worked want to be killed. Cause that’s the first thing we’ll do is shoot ‘em, if somebody lands, they’ll go out with a gun and they’ll try to shoot them right away.

'''Jim:''' So there wasn’t a question in this group about whether they existed or whether they were here? Or whether they were coming or going?

'''Int:''' Never. Never. Never, never a question. And these are very intelligent scient, they used to call them engineers, but they are called scientists now a-days.

'''Jim:''' Uh- uh.

'''Int:''' And these are very, very good scientists. All of them. Um and uh...

'''Jim:''' How do think the uh, just to get us back a little more contemporary, obviously the new is filled right now, with uh, falling dummies from the sky. Does that make any sense at all in the light of the work that you did or the place, or the place, or the kind of work that they did?

'''Int:''' Absolutely not! Because by the time, well the time, the period they are talking about, the parachute dropping was an art already. Like I told you Mr. Knache wrote the parachute bible that we still to this day use, with his coordinates and everything. And we knew very well what happens with a man when he is in a parachute and does not uh, uh dump his ‘chute and uh we’ve engineered and killed so many men ourselves, showing off to officer’s wives, about drops. And uh...we’re the general over, well I shouldn’t talk about it, but the general when, one drop we had in a terrible big drop. And because the ladies were tired and it was cold, uh they went and made them go ahead, the drop master was over wrote by the general, because they “wanted to go ahead and drop them” it was a big drop, I think it was about a five hundred (500) men drop. And uh they went ahead and the wind was wrong, and it was it was, terrible, it was just murder, it was just actual murder.

'''Jim:''' Interject.

'''Int:''' So they knew, they knew how to drop a man. They weren’t worried about anything about a man, about men. I know that when this news paper article, I, I just got so angry, because it’s so, only a jackass would write that kind of an article.

'''Jim:''' Well he...

'''Int:''' Yet he sounds logical to some people. But anybody that known about what was going on because at that time we were testing the Aerobee rocket. And that’s what we were testing.

'''Jim:''' What did the Aerobee rocket do? Is that missile or a...

'''Int:''' Yeah, it was a missile, it was a forerunner years----. Your space ships right now. '''Jim:''' Okay, I remember, when I was a boy I lived in uh a place south of San Francisco, and they had a Nike-----installation up on the hill; it was a defensive position. 

'''Int:''' Yeah.

'''Jim:''' I know, because we snuck in there and got chased off by the MP’s.

'''Int:''' See that’s, that’s a missile, a ballistic missile. The Aerobee rocket is the one that we
stole. It was the one von Braun was gettin together to drop on Berlin. I mean on Berlin... '''Jim:''' On London?

'''Int:''' On London, and we got and I was readin something said we had never had a, we never got an Aerobee rocket, well they’re crazy then hell. We had one right there. Right there at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, it was laying on the ground out there. And uh so uh we had that rocket and so we then took it out to White Sands, New Mexico and we were testing to go the moon with it, is what we were trying to do. And we were recovering it with parachutes and but in the beginning when the parachutes came down with the men with the rocket, you know the men were in this thing, then we killed them. I mean, we didn’t know how to do it. And that’s when they decided we’d drop them in the water. Remember when they were dropped in the...

'''Jim:''' That’s right.

'''Int:''' They were dropped in water. And remember those... '''Jim:''' They were safer cause they could...

'''Int:''' And there was the parachutes down there... Well see that’s what we are wondering over is and that’s it was an intense study at that time. The Aerobee rocket, not looken for persons how to teach personnel from gettin hurt. ‘cause they and that, and I’d say that say that picture was about a 1970.

'''Jim:''' I wondered about that to because of the haircuts and style and the uniforms and all that.

'''Int:''' Right.

'''Jim:''' And I wondered if it wasn’t faked up photo.

'''Int:''' Right. And uh it’s an articulated dummy, and uh if you saw dummy what they looked like in fifty-one (51) they didn’t look like that; I got news for you.

'''Jim:''' And they sure didn’t look like a four (4) foot high humanoid being?

'''Int:''' No. But the thing of it is, what are they trying, did you notice in the paper they are talking about parachutes, parachutes, parachutes. Well uh and parachutes and er dummies in the parachutes and all this and that. Why are trying to say, where were they, where were they to see them? And so why would people be thinking they were out of whack?

'''Jim:''' Right.

'''Int:''' What do it just laying on the ground and people said oh that’s a that’s a alien. They neglected to tell them why would the people think that those were real people? What, there had by to be something there to attach them to. Wouldn’t it?

'''Jim:''' Yup. There would have to be.

'''Int:''' And they’d really, they told the truth, but they didn’t tell al the truth in that article. But a
person like me I know that they are full of bull.

'''Jim:''' The other thing is that if they drop a dummy with a parachute then the parachute should be there. Any normal person would say, okay, that got dropped by a parachute.

'''Int:''' Okay, because he’d be attached to it.

'''Jim:''' Right, there’s noting extraordinary about that.

'''Int:''' Right. In those days in 51, uh you know rag doll, you know rag dolls... '''Jim:''' Sure...

'''Int:''' That’s what they looked like, that’s what their dummies looked like. '''Jim:''' Can I stop for a moment and get some more coffee?

'''Int:''' Yeah, go ahead. I’ll get one too.

'''''End of side A Tape One (1).'''''

'''Int:''' So I’m calling that article a goddamn lie! That report, is goddamn lie.

'''Jim:''' Well the other...

'''Int:''' Misleading the American people and it isn’t true, that is not what. I’d like to read your report, but apparently credible men read it and wrote those articles. And they usually get the gist of the article in the newspaper. And un, it’s not true.

'''Jim:''' I went on the Internet the other night and pulled this, when you get on line you can get on cnn.com; it’s a very good news source and they had a big story on the falling dummies.

'''Int:''' Yeah.

'''Jim:''' Roswell- Case Closed, all that. And the thing, I guess, that caught my attention the most was that right after that they were taking a poll to see what your opinion was, and you could check whether you believed the government or whether you didn’t. And when I got off there it was like fourteen thousand (14,000) people said they didn’t believe the government, and there were only like two thousand (2,000) who said that they did.

'''Int:''' Yeah. Well think about this. The name of the article was, the book, the report. Roswell- Case Closed. Right?

'''Jim:''' Right.

'''Int:''' And they’re saying the bodies they saw were dummies.

'''Jim:''' Right.

'''Int:''' So aren’t they admitting that there was a crash?

'''Jim:''' Kind of.

'''Int:''' They are.

'''Jim:''' Right, because they never have even acknowledged that there was a crash.

'''Int:''' That there was a crash. So how could is if it was a crash that didn’t happen, how could it them being able to tell you that this was uh dummies. And then they try’in to say, that well they’ve misconstrued the forty-eight (‘48) uh crash and this is what was happening in fifty-one (‘51) and in their mind they’ve put the two things together. No way. No way. It’s just an insult, it’s an insult to me and I like I say I’m the last survivor of the Parachute Branch, and I know what was going on in fifty-one (‘51) and fifty- two (‘52). And there was a crash during that time and possibly two (2). The Roswell was different, it was in forty-seven (‘47).17

'''Jim:''' And now you mentioned earlier...

'''Int:''' We were. We were still crashing, and..

17 A further comment on multiple Crash Retrieval Events distinct from Roswell in 1947.

'''Jim:''' You mentioned three (3) crashes earlier.

'''Int:''' Yeah, there’s three (3) there was three (3) times that I am aware of, I won’t
vouch for the fourth (4) one cause I wouldn’t...

'''Jim:''' These three (3) crashes that you heard about while you worked at Wright- Patterson?

'''Int:''' One (1) was the [[The Roswell UFO Incident|Roswell]], and then there was two (2) others. I want to show you something.

'''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' This map. And like I say I can’t see too good. There is Roswell, right?

'''Jim:''' Right.

'''Int:''' Okay, see this here?

'''Jim:''' Alamogordo

'''Int:''' No.

'''Jim:''' Or, the map right there on the seam. Is....

'''Int:''' See that: White Sands?

'''Jim:''' Right.

'''Int:''' That’s where we were testing. And uh they don’t take parachutes from here over here.

'''Jim:''' Not likely. It’s, that’s a very large distance.

'''Int:''' No, cause they, those engineers know exactly where the rockets going to land when she...and see the Salton Sea?
'''Jim:''' Yes.

'''Int:''' Well that’s where we were also practicing. See this is the White Sands uh White Sands Proving Grounds is what this is this area, on along in here I don’t know. Does the map say that, White Sands?

'''Jim:''' I don’t think so cause I don’t think there’s enough scale on this map. '''Int:''' It’s a proving it’s a proving ground in White Sands.

'''Jim:''' Yeah, I think you need one with bigger a bigger scale. I noticed you have two (2) other places circled. Okay, the Salton Sea over here in California,

'''Int:''' Well they well they had done some testing over here also, but that was a different type of testing.

'''Jim:''' And then down here in Sierra Vista?

'''Int:''' I had a friend living down there.

'''Jim:''' Oh, I see, okay.

'''Int:''' Yeah. This is the scale of this map is uh one (2) inch equals one hundred (100) miles.

'''Jim:''' Well, you’ve got a third (1/3), if I’m looking at this right, about a third (1/3) of the state in between in between Roswell and the area that these parachute test were being conducted.

'''Int:''' Right! So if they’re testing dummies over here, they wouldn’t land over here. And you don’t put dummies with parachutes and balloons together. Let me tell ya, you don’t do it. Cause the air would have an altogether different feel on a balloon that it would have on a parachute. And so it uh the day they when they was denying to the crash in fifty-one (‘51) when they were denying the crash.

'''Jim:''' Right

'''Int:''' Uh they said it was a balloon. That-------I believe. And uh, that’s what it was.

'''Jim:''' I remember first they said some balloons.

'''Int:''' Yes.

'''Jim:''' And then they said a classified balloon project with microphones to listen to Soviets, and now they are saying balloons that had dummies on them.

'''Int:''' Right. But any way.

'''Jim:''' I’m, having a hard time keeping all these stories straight.

'''Int:''' But if we all had a little radio in the lab there they always had a radio going, and so that news come across that uh there was a balloon, one of the engineers called into the next lab he says “Hey. You know that there was a balloon.” ------ and they don’t swear much but in any...18

'''Jim:''' Now what were they referring to then?

'''Int:''' Cause the government said that the spacecraft was a balloon.

'''Jim:''' Right.

'''Int:''' And those guys they almost came unglued, you’d almost say they rolled on the floor laughing.

'''Jim:''' Now when was this though?

'''Int:''' This was another crash.

'''Jim:''' Okay, this was back in fifty-two (‘52), fifty-one (‘51)?

'''Int:''' This was fifty-two (‘52), fifty-one (‘51)-fifty-two (‘52) at the time. And it was still in the Roswell...

'''Jim:''' Oh they were; and they used the balloon story back then? '''Int:''' Certainly they did.

'''Jim:''' And these guys knew that it was a lie?

'''Int:''' Well certainly they knew it was a lie. They knew it was a lie, see the thing of it is, all these crashes, for some mysterious reason were always right around this Roswell area. They were always right around this area.

'''Jim:''' Now if I remember right, Roswell, one of its distinctions is that that’s where the first nuclear bomber base in the world was.

'''Int:''' Right.

'''Jim:''' Which...

'''Int:''' And the nuclear, when they first started a messing around with the atomic bomb, that’s when they were thick. Those they were thick in the sky, the people didn’t pay any attention to em, I mean we had a war going on. And uh people weren’t, well let’s face we didn’t have communication. Well, a hell I never even saw a TV in those days.

18 June claimed that she was present when some engineers heard a radio broadcast where a balloon observation was used to cover for an encounter with an ET vehicle.

'''Jim:''' Well I remember there was an incident in Los Angeles, I don’ t remember the date during the war but it’s well documented, I’ve even seen the news paper headlines. Where they had a air raid full scale air raid alert, there were mysterious lights seen the sky and they fired fourteen hundred (1,400) and some odd high explosive anti-air craft rounds, and didn’t faze whatever they were shooting at.

'''Int:''' Right, right.

'''Jim:''' And they never explained that. Do you feel that...

'''Int:''' Well like I say the mil... The government has a way they have control over the military already, you either, you shut your trap, you don’t say nothin or you get court-martialed, or you go to prison. I mean they can lock you up without any reason. They don’t have the same rules that we as civilians have. And the civilians were controlled by fear, of losing your job. And in those days, do you think I wanted to lose my little $1,260 a year job.

'''Jim:''' Well back then that was...

'''Int:''' I mean this is a...

'''Jim:''' More money then...

'''Int:''' This is after the Depression.

'''Jim:''' You wouldn’t know whatever happened to Master Sergeant Clarence, would you?

'''Int:''' I would, I’m going to find him, I’m going to try to find somebody on the Internet, there’s one name that I think if she may still be alive. But see, like I say I was the youngest one workin. And I’m going to try to find some of those young...there was a black girl her name was Marcella, and uh, I’d like, it’s quite possible maybe I’ll be able to locate her. And uh, cause people in Ohio don’t live very far from where they were born. They don’t. I was the venturer that I came clear the West Coast. I was only one of two of my entire graduating class there was only two of us that got away from our own homes. The rest of them stayed right there in Ohio somewhere or other.

'''Jim:''' Maybe I ought to take a look at that letter now and see if so I’ll just stop it for now and we can come back.
Break

'''Jim:''' In any event.

'''Int:''' It was just an excepted thing.

'''Jim:''' Now who was Hap Arnold19 to you?

'''Int:''' He was just a damn good looking’ man. God he was good looking.’ '''Jim:''' Okay, but what was his rank, you remember?

'''Int:''' Ah, he was probably lieutenant colonel at that time.

'''Jim:''' Was he assigned to Wright-Patterson?

'''Int:''' Was apparently, cause he was there quite often.

'''Jim:''' And he talked to people, you knew him as an acquaintance?

'''Int:''' Oh-yeah. Yeah. You know, he’d come in, Hi. Hap, mind you, that type of person. Cause we never associated with each other outside the base. You, you just weren’t supposed to.

'''Jim:''' Then he talked about UFO’s?

'''Int:''' Yeah, he was, he’d be talking to the other engineers about them. You know you’d be saying something about well did you find any find any signs of it or how’s things going and this and that. Then see we’d, another thing, we shot, you know what a BB shot looks like?

'''Jim:''' Sure.

'''Int:''' Okay, we put BB’s on the moon along time before we started shootin missiles. '''Jim:''' Just to see if we could do it?

'''Int:''' Just to see if we could do it. And we traced them with radio. You know. And then we sent the monkeys up, we started sending the monkeys, well those monkeys he died of it... The one he finally just died not, it wasn’t not to awful long ago. But he died of old age.

'''Jim:''' I’m surprised they didn’t tell us that the little men were monkeys. I was kind of waiting for that one.
19 This is another perplexing remark. In order for June to have known Hap Arnold, she would have had to have met him during her first period of employment, since he retired in 1946, and he died in 1950. However, when she mentioned him, I could tell that she had a very strong recollection of how she thought of him when she was a young woman – her face flushed and she smiled broadly. There is a possible important connection to her remark. Hap Arnold created the Scientific Advisory Board, which was headed by Dr. Theodore von Karman whose name is mentioned several times in the MAJESTIC Documents.

'''Int:''' I was waiting for that, because there was, we did send up some monkeys. And they come down, back down and they weren’t hurt they were in good shape. But see they kept them there at the lab in an Aero Med Lab. And that’s another thing that they there’s never any mention of the Aero Med Lab. The Aero Med Lab is the one that had that got the bodies.

'''Jim:''' At Wright-Patterson?

'''Int:''' Right. Then you’ll read it in the letter there.

'''Jim:''' Okay. Well let me just take a break here and go through this. Break

'''Jim:''' Well anyway, since I went through that letter, I came up with a couple of things I wanted to ask about. Cause in the letter you mentioned that the same day that you heard about what had gone on, the little men being brought to the base.

'''Int:''' Right.

'''Jim:''' That there was a memo that came out?

'''Int:''' Right, right that was the fear that when I say when they control civilians with fear and the thing, it was on one piece of paper one of those too hot to handle. It had; it has to be passed hand to hand. And it said that some irresponsible person was telling that there was little green men and that we and that if we repeated the rumor and the rumor was underlined on the this memo, that we was liable to immediate dismissal or a twenty thousand dollar fine ($20,000) or twenty years in jail. And we had to sign that, and it was signed it was the memo came from the base commander; now the base commander is the commander of the entire base. Now how in the hell did he get that information that fast and get that memo written up? And get uh got it to us. Cause he brought it right to us in the Parachute Branch. And uh so we had to sign it and of course we didn’t talk about it after that. Officially we were very careful when we talked about it. Of course the scientist you can’t check them up anyway. But they don’t talk to anybody except themselves.20

20 This would be in keeping with a policy of total secrecy related to MAJESTIC operations. My understanding is that when the memo was delivered, it was on the basis that you stopped what you were doing at that moment and responded by reading and signing.

'''Jim:''' Well this is a place where people could talk about, they talked about unusual things anyway?

'''Int:''' Yeah.

'''Jim:''' Right?

'''Int:''' But under this circumstances only did we get that memo.

'''Jim:''' And they had never, they had never told people to be quiet about any other?

'''Int:''' Never

'''Jim:''' Wild speculative...

'''Int:''' Never

'''Jim:''' Things.

'''Int:''' Never, never, never it was only

'''Jim:''' Only this one?

'''Int:''' Only that one. Only that one.

'''Jim:''' And that one?

'''Int:''' And that when the airplane that was chasing the UFO blew up, we didn’t no memo like that.

'''Jim:''' Was that Major Mantel? '''Int:''' Right.

'''Jim:''' The Mantel incident?

'''Int:''' Right, we didn’t get any memo about that. I mean, they didn’t say nothin about that it just happened. They didn’t say why or anything, and we never heard anything about...21

'''Jim:''' Do remember where, that was where that one blew up?

21 I am not sure whether or not June was referring to the famous Thomas Mantell Incident of January 07, 1948 or some other case, since she did not start work until May 13th of that year.

'''Int:''' I don’t I don’t really remember...

'''Jim:''' I guess I have to look it up.

'''Int:''' It wasn’t really anything in my uh group, because it wasn’t concerned with parachutes then.

'''Jim:''' You mentioned Blue Book too in the letter.

'''Int:''' Yeah well, ever read blue when I worked their Aerobee Blue Book — sighting came across my desk and I saw it. Every, every one and uh I had a canned phrase that we used to send back to the person that saw it saw it. From an engineering viewpoint this craft could not possibly fly.22 And it was that’s all we said we didn’t say anything else. Then the guys would take the record and take it over their and discuss it and kick it around awhile and then they’d say, okay, we better get somebody out their and take a look at that. Investigate it immediately, I mean immediately.

'''Jim:''' So they would tell people publicly one thing and they would do something else.

'''Int:''' Right. And this is what, this was a cover up when this reported in newspapers it happened that such a conspiracy exists, that how it existed. Because it was right at the very start of it. Project Blue Book was not formed to investigate those things; it was formed to stop the people from thinking that’s what it was. I, that’s my opinion and I’ll stick with it.

'''Jim:''' And somebody else was actually investigating?

'''Int:''' Right. They were being investigated by the [[Project Blue Book]] officers, yes. But the basic thing and the reason why they was told people were investigating it and everything, they were investigating it all right, very very religiously, but at the same time they were telling people that they were nuts, or drunk, or doing mentally under drugs or something. And uh. It was that was what Project Blue Book was all about was to try to squelch all the talk of the UFO’s.

22 My impression was that she was claiming that she worked on letters to explain away UFO sightings as part of her secretarial duties. I have no confirmation of this.

'''Jim:''' If I remember right too, in the letter you mentioned that uh people in this group went to White Sands23 to do testing and then came back?

'''Int:''' Yes.

'''Jim:''' And did they say that anything unusual had happened to them?

'''Int:''' Well, they said they were just as thick as fleas up there. They’d sit at night they’d sit on the outside of their motels or they would stand by the building. And they would watch them go over, all types and shapes. There’d be mother ships, big ones with little ones coming out of it. And then they would see them return and they had different colored lights some had orange sometimes red, yellow different lights they would see. And then what they would do if they would if the people the engineers and scientist would report it that they saw them. They locked them up in a motel for twenty-four (24) hours with no access to no radios no people no nothin and uh they’d bring their meals into them but have no contact with anybody and they had them to write up what they saw.24 And then when they come out the following day, twenty-four (24) hours later they’d have them write it up again. And like the engineers said, the hell with it, I’m not going to report any more. I’m not going to be locked up for twenty-four (24) hours. And uh but they were it was just a common thing to look up at the sky and see them. They were that thick, now this is these, these engineers that I’m talking about they were my engineers and they were Aerobee project----But Project Blue Book they you know the government makes out like it was investigating. Mainly, I’d still say it was formed to make the American people say that well only nuts see flying saucers.

'''Jim:''' And so. Are there any people any names of anybody that you’d like to name that were part of this engineering group?

'''Int:''' Well, I got I have names here. A long list of them. People that worked I worked at the same time as I did of course like I say they’re probably all dead cause I was twenty-six (26) at the time approximately and they would have been at least ten (10) years older because they had college behind...

23 She mentioned in this and other conversations that she heard the scientists and engineers when they returned from testing rockets at White Sands Proving Ground in New Mexico discussing how extensive the UFO activity was in the area while they were conducting their tests.

24 This sounds like a good procedure for discouraging personnel from making UFO reports. It would certainly dissuade most anyone.

'''Jim:''' Sure.

'''Int:''' And jobs. And uh the last I heard when I had given a name a list of names to...should I say the name? Anyway I gave the names to an author and he was trying to verify my story and he had told me that he investigated and every one of them was dead. They’d up and died. You know older than me. And so, that’s why I say I’m probably the last survivor of the parachute group. And I’m probably the only one that can tell that can say that...I’m still going back to that article, that article is a damn lie, it’s just a big cover up.

'''Jim:''' Well they have been going on with that with different kinds of stories for a long time. '''Int:''' It’s been two hundred and twenty-four (224) pages on it. That kind of stuff. -----------
and here’s another thing about that. 

'''Jim:''' Uh-huh.

'''Int:''' They can’t find none of these papers and come up with these actual papers on the space program, and everything. And yet they can find out all about those parachutes.

'''Jim:''' Exactly.

'''Int:''' No way. Parachute branch, each one of those branches had a chart I typed them cause I use a typewriter about four (4) foot long. And it had the chief up here and then his assistants, and then personnel over here, personnel minds, personnel prop parachutes, cargo parachutes, others you know. And all the people workin there listed under there. And so when you try to when I gave this names to this officer he couldn’t find any of those charts, they’re not in existence, apparently, any more.

'''Jim:''' So they were uh, but as I understand it there was a lot more going on where you worked than just parachutes.

'''Int:''' It was all parachutes, it was para...

'''Jim:''' But why what was...

'''Int:''' It was parachute connected. Anything that was connected with the parachute in any way shape or form came into our branch.

'''Jim:''' Yeah, but when you said that you saw a Blue Book reports? 

'''Int:''' Well that was well they didn’t know where else to take it to. 

'''Jim:''' Okay. Okay

'''Int:''' Then nobody else would it was there wasn’t anybody else that would have any reason to uh know anything about these crazy things flying. So we got ‘em.

'''Jim:''' Let me just go back over something, I was trying, there are so many ideas going through my mind right now, I’m trying to get it focused. Uh, what do you think is the kind of like the bottom line for all this. Where, what do you really think they know? I mean I realize that some of this is speculative cause you told me that you only had certain knowledge and that’s it. But if you were going to speculate where, what do you think they really know?

'''Int:''' The government?

'''Jim:''' Yes.

'''Int:''' They’ve got UFO’s and they’re trying they’ve apparently have already discovered what the propulsion system is. And when they get that their knowledge, their flight pattern will be it’ll be completely different, and all the aeronautical flights would be different.

'''Jim:''' Well some people think they are already doing that.

'''Int:''' And uh, well I don’t know about that but it, cause that was the key that was the key thing. What is their propulsion system? Because it wasn’t gasoline, it wasn’t electric, it wasn’t uh anti gravity, they think that, the engineers would talk, said such a thing as anti gravity, which ever that means, and then of course this show the other night said something about a anti matter. And uh that would be fantastic if it would be able to... That would they, cause the thing of it is, they said to go as far as they have to go to go to another planet or another solar system uh the amount of fuel to go that far would be, how could they carry enough fuel? Because, another thing the scientist I worked with, they said, people think our solar system is the only one it is. There’s other solar systems out there. These may not be coming from Venus or Mars or Neptune or none of these planets. These could be coming from another solar system completely. Cause there’s lots of solar systems they’ve discovered now. At that time they didn’t know it cause we didn’t have the equipment to know about it. And so uh, there could be another group of people or beings that uh have progressed much beyond our knowledge. And they’re able to fly around with some type of fuel that their some power that they’re using, that we don’t have any idea of it. But uh, I’m sure that I would I would almost betcha that by this time they know what it is. And I lay money that they are experimenting. And possibly some of the UFO’s people are seeing are ours. They’ve discovered how to do it. Because the one that came over, when I saw the one came over my head, the night there was forty (40) of us, and we saw one come over our head.

'''Jim:''' Now, now where was that?

'''Int:''' It was in Portland. Came right off of Swan Island. Came right off of Swan Island right over our heads. There was about forty (40) of us in a group.

'''Jim:''' What kind of group was this?

'''Int:''' It was, you’re going to laugh.

'''Jim:''' That’s all right.

'''Int:''' It was Beggars Night on Halloween. And we uh, neighborhood group together. 

'''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' And here comes this thing over our heads and we looked up and by golly it was a flying saucer. It was beautiful. Had this big lower disc on the bottom, had a thing on the top of it. And the bottom part of it was, you know, and it was revolving, a double revolution. There was something revolving one way and another thing revolving another way.

'''Jim:''' At what time of day was this?

'''Int:''' This was at night.

'''Jim:''' At night.

'''Int:''' Yeah, I would say probably 7:30pm. '''Jim:''' Was it illuminated?

'''Int:''' No, other than it had a light shining down on us.

'''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' And then uh, some of the women got hysterical and I looked and I knew god, I’ve seen one...

'''Jim:''' This is it!

'''Int:''' This is it, oh man. I mean I was in my glory. And uh, another woman grabbed of me and started screaming in my face, “I didn’t see it, I didn’t see it, I didn’t see it.” And uh, then it was right over the head and then it went, shhhhhhump, and it was gone. And it was beautiful it was a beautiful thing. And now it wasn’t that far over my head. I mean it wasn’t really...

'''Jim:''' This was a close... 

'''Int:''' It was close...

'''Jim:''' A close encounter.

'''Int:''' It was close, oh it was close. But I it had to come off the Swan Island. Now what in the hell it would do down on Swan Island I will never know but that’s where that thing came from. It had to come there up over. See right where I lived was right on the bluff. Do you know where Swan Island is down in Portland?

'''Jim:''' Only vaguely.

'''Int:''' Well anyway, it’s a sunken area and there’s a big bluff and the houses are all up here. And that thing came swooped up this way and come up over us. And I’m telling you it was beautiful. The lights inside of that thing the I don’t know how to describe it. It was as though one part was rotating this way and the other part was going this way. And there was orangey reddish lights in it.

'''Jim:''' Uh-huh.

'''Int:''' There was no, you couldn’t see any, I mean I didn’t see no people or nothin it was just
that rotate that odd rotation.

'''Jim:''' How high above you do you think it was? If you had to guess...

'''Int:''' That girl asked me that too. Uh, couldn’t have been over three (3), three hundred (300) feet. Couldn’t have been over much over that. But the sound. It sounded like a razor and electric razor, hummmmmmm. That was about as loud as it went. Well you know how your razor sounds?

'''Jim:''' Uh-huh.

'''Int:''' That’s just what it sounded like. It was...

'''Jim:''' I want to go back to this, your experiences with these engineers or this think tank group. Not knowing what else to call it.

'''Int:''' Yeah.

'''Jim:''' Uh, did you ever hear any discussions or speculations on uh, what would happen if the American public were told the truth? What would happen if they just said, this is what we’ve got and this is what we’ve found.

'''Int:''' Yeah. 

'''Jim:''' What...

'''Int:''' It was often discussed. Uh they kicked it around. One of the first things, is of course... So many engineers and scientist do not believe in god. And he said the first thing it would cause is a complete disbelief in this religious in this religion things. Because according to the bible the god created the earth and all the people within it. And that’s it. Well then this would prove that that’s not right. And uh they said that would be the first thing and so the church would undoubtedly try to squelch any knowledge of it, that it’s real. And then also they said another then the other another one of the contentions was that the first thing they could do was lower the boom on all of us and stop us from killing each other. Because we are such a deadly bloodthirsty bunch of people. And uh they would probably establish some sort of government ruled by them that would prevent it would stop starvation and all this. Mankind would be controlled more so than they are now by their own government. But everybody would be controlled in the same manner. Which is that’s pretty hard to think about.

'''Jim:''' It is hard to think about.

'''Int:''' If you think about what would happen if everything was controlled and there was no more crime everybody behaved and people all they could make their living and live in peace.

'''Jim:''' Well I might be out of work, except for directing traffic and helping find lost children or something.

'''Int:''' Right. Right. It would completely disrupt most peoples’ lives in some way or another. And this is the way these guys would talk about the various things that would happen. And they all agreed that their not these aliens are peaceful people. If they were war like they would have done something about it a long time ago.

'''Jim:''' Well it’s interesting because of what you are saying about them discussing that, because I’ve seen a reprint of a document that was obtained in the freedom of information act that they obtained from the national security agency. And it wasn’t signed and it was briefing paper on what would happen or what the theories are behind UFO’s. What are the possibilities? And it went over all this same ground that you have just covered.

'''Int:''' Yeah they talked about it.

'''Jim:''' Yeah and that’s what’s that’s what’s fascinating about it.

'''Int:''' Well this is what they talked about. Cause you know, the thing would like I say when people, these are weird people, they’d sit around for hours and talk this way. Kicking an idea around kick’en around over and over.

'''Jim:''' And this is what they were paid to do. 38

'''Int:''' That’s what they were paid to do. And uh

'''Jim:''' So the bottom line here is that in this group of people the question of whether or not

we’ve been contacted, wasn’t a question. 

'''Int:''' That was never...

'''Jim:''' If I’m understanding you right. 

'''Int:''' It was never a question, never. 

'''Jim:''' It has happened?

'''Int:''' Yes. That’s what they fully believed it. And they also there was even some of them said we have them among us. And they have our shape and form and look just like ordinary people.

'''Jim:''' Did you ever hear uh, I don’t know, I don’t know the time that you spent with uh, you mentioned Dr. von Braun.25

'''Int:''' Yeah.

'''Jim:''' Did you ever hear him say anything that’s related to this subject? 

'''Int:''' No.

'''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' I only had three (3) hour contact with him, cause he was a prisoner and uh cause the night I told you how the officer came and picked me up and the lieutenant colonel. He came in and he had side arms.

'''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' I’d never seen him with side arms either I only saw him in his uniform. He had side arms on. We walked down this alley into another lab that was strictly off limits to anybody. And went down there and here was a man on each side of this these double doors with machine guns. And then we went through and went into Dr. von Braun’s laboratory, and so that was my only contact with him.

'''Jim:''' And just to go over...

25 If June was confabulating, this would have been an excellent place for her to embellish her account of her time with Dr. Wernher von Braun.

'''Int:''' And we was very cold, he was a cold son of a bitch. And another thing none other than me the and all the Germans hated his liven guts. They hated that man.

'''Jim:''' Why?

'''Int:''' Well read his history. '''Jim:''' Sure.

'''Int:''' He was a killer. People, men, people were expendable, he got those you know the Jews and people that he but into factories to build those rockets. And when they passed out and died that’s take em out get those bodies out of here, and get some more in here. He was a brutal man, brutal. Because he had one thing in mind. He was a scientist and he had he had theories that he was going to do. And nothing else counted, human beings didn’t count with him. He made me stand up for three (3) solid hours. There were no chairs in that room. Not even for himself.

'''Jim:''' Three(3) hours is a long time.

'''Int:''' And all I had was counter, a long counter. It was about this wide about a foot well two (2) foot, three (3) foot wide, and I had my pencils cause I was instructed to bring two (2) two (2) or three (3) books cause it would take a lot of dictation. And plenty of sharpened pencils. And they were layin there and I was taking dictation and cannot and then ask the questions when something wouldn’t be clear to me, I would ask him questions and he’d go back. And uh he was just a cold just a cold person. I, you must have been around somebody in your life that they that you think Jesus Christ that man is cold.

'''Jim:''' They just don’t care.

'''Int:''' They don’t care about you at all. And three (3) hours and he never once stopped talking to give me any break or nothing.

'''Jim:''' And this was directed at if I’m understanding this right, this document was to justify...

'''Int:''' The budget.

'''Jim:''' The budget...

'''Int:''' For the six hundred thousand ($600,000) dollars to start... '''Jim:''' That helped get the rocketry program going.

'''Int:''' To start, yeah right. That’s what it was for. Course, you know one thing I often thought. Maybe the reason in his book, when I read his book, his biography, autobiography, maybe the reason he didn’t mention Wright-Patterson Air Force Base because he never got credit for that three (3) hour interview. And writing that program, he never once got credit. For it. And without a doubt, I think to this day that that’s why he just passed by Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. And also he was a prisoner at the time. So he just didn’t he just didn’t mention it. In fact I gave that book to Sharp and in it I made notes where it disagrees with the truth. She has it all over there.

'''Jim:''' Is there uh, I’m just kind of skipping back and forth to different things. '''Int:''' Uh-huh.

'''Jim:''' That piece of material...

'''Int:''' Yeah.

'''Jim:''' That you got to hold. Have you ever felt anything that was similar?

'''Int:''' Never. It had a funny even slick a feel to it. You know if I say hold out your hand. '''Jim:''' Uh-huh.

'''Int:''' Now close your eyes, and I but this in your hand you...

'''Jim:''' Right.

'''Int:''' You can start telling me what that is can’t you?

'''Jim:''' Exactly.

'''Int:''' You couldn’t, this thing you couldn’t. Didn’t even feel like any metal I’ve ever felt. It wasn’t a greasy feeling, and yet I wasn’t a smooth it wasn’t, it was just an odd feeling, it was just an odd piece of metal. And I would almost say that it wasn’t even a metal. I mean it was that different.

'''Jim:''' Uh-huh.

'''Int:''' Like no metal I of course have a very active curiosity and uh some things like that bother me they really bug me. Because I like this silly putty, I had had the first piece of silly putty that was ever made. I had it in my hands. And the engineers he came in I’d be bouncing it on my desk, and he says “June, how would you like to hold a million dollars” and I said “why?” He said, “well pick it up.” And I picked it up. He said, “you’re holding a million dollars.” I say ah come on. The says no that’s the first piece of sil of that putty that we were trying to get them to come up with Dupont, and he said it’s what, its got every property but it won’t do the job that we want. They wanted to seal the windows in the...

'''Jim:''' Sure.

'''Int:''' In the you know. And it won’t freeze, you can hit with a hammer and it won’t spatter and you well you know what silly putty is? '''Jim:''' Sure.

'''Int:''' And to this day no one, and that thing is fifty (50) years old, to this day they’ve never... '''Jim:''' Now you’ve got an opossum. (I was watching the opossum walk on to her back porch.)

'''Int:''' Yeah. Hi Chico, what are you doing Chico. Okay, but to this day uh no one has made any use that they can use that stuff with except as a toy.

'''Jim:''' But it was originally developed as a possible sealant and putty for rockets.

'''Int:''' And windows. But it cost a million (1,000,000) dollars, and I had that thing in my hand. It bounced liked a ball it does every well you know you’ve played with it. '''Jim:''' Sure.

'''Int:''' And you didn’t know that that was Air Force. '''Jim:''' No, that makes sense.

'''Int:''' Yeah.

'''Jim:''' It does make sense.

'''Int:''' See, the I had there was many things happen when I was their and all. For instance, the ejection seat.

'''Jim:''' Right.

'''Int:''' Okay. One of the engineers, now he wasn’t in my group, but he was in the lab right where I could see into his area. They all had windows around so all the labs had windows so no hanky panky would go on with the girls. You know there was one (1) girl to about seven (7) between five (5) and seven (7) men. And uh so but everything was glass so that they can see we didn’t do anything we shouldn’t been doin. And uh, uh, he had the his project he was responsible for developing that uh ejection seat. And so he had it through he thought it was through he thought it was right and everything, they were testing it and then he started getting UR’s because it would kill the guys. They would go up and their heads would hit the plexy glass top and it would mash their heads.

'''Jim:''' What’s a UR?

'''Int:''' An unsatisfactory report. '''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' And so after he got about four (4) of them in about three (3) days he went off his bean. Completely. And he wouldn’t he never left his lab for four (4) days. He stayed in there and cried and cried and cried, cause he felt so deeply that it was his mistake. What it was it was something to do with the switch, that when they would hit it the switch, they’d both went off at the same time. Instead of the one the seat going, the plexy glass going of first.
'''Jim:''' Right.

'''Int:''' And then letting the man go up. Well there was just a two (2) or three (3) second interval that wasn’t right. And that was what why they was killing these men. And uh and uh of course wrecken the airplane and uh, he but he stayed in that he wouldn’t even go out. And they were really concerned that he might commit suicide. So somebody stayed right there twenty-four (24) hours a day. And watched him, because you wouldn’t dare go in you know.

'''Jim:''' I just thought of a thing I’ve been sitting here trying to think of something that I wanted to ask you about. And I remember you mentioning gun camera film.

'''Int:''' Yeah. GSAP’s.

'''Jim:''' Now I’m not sure the year and it may have been after you worked there. But I have read somewhere that supposedly there was a point where the deliberately sent up planes over the United States with gun cameras for the purpose of hope they would hope that they would come into contact with UFO’s.

'''Int:''' Well,

'''Jim:''' And maybe get it on film.

'''Int:''' Every military aircraft has it. Every one has it. See for a long time that was a secret, very secret thing. The GSAP cameras. And uh, right of World War II, that was still a secret. And they had it just perfected down to a gnat ear. Well you saw during that uh the sand war we had. You saw how those pictures they showed the bomb going in and so. Those are GSAP’s taking those pictures.

'''Jim:''' It was amazing photography.

'''Int:''' Yeah. Well they had their photography during World War II. Yep, 

'''Jim:''' But you didn’t hear of any gun camera film that maybe had UFO’s on it? '''Int:''' No.

'''Jim:''' I’m pretty sure that that may have happened after you were there.

'''Int:''' There was one time there was a film when I was working for the photo de, photo lab.
And everybody was raving about that picture that he had, that he got with one of his cameras. You know when the come back they send the film back to be developed. Ansco was developing it at that time. And uh, they was talking about a picture he had and they said you ought to go down and get him to show you that picture. And uh, I didn’t have the chance to do it and then I sort of passed it by. But I’ve wondered in the past just what that picture was. Because, we saw it on one of the films he got a picture.

'''Jim:''' Of something.

'''Int:''' Of something. And what else do you get in the sky, you know? '''Jim:''' Well that’s true because, UFO does mean unidentified flying object.

'''Int:''' But they was all raving about it, but they wouldn’t tell me what it was. They said but you go look, go look, go ask him. And uh god he was another good looken guy. I tell you there was some good lookin men over there. I guess that’s why they had all that glass around.

'''Jim:''' Probably so, probably so.

'''Int:''' I would go drink beer with the Germans at noon. They’d go they’d take me to lunch. They always, they liked me cause I would correct their English you know. And I’d write up their reports so it would be intelligible to regular people. And change their language and stuff, and so at lunchtime I’d go with them over to our local tavern. And we’d I’d take my own I always carried my own lunch in those days. And uh we’d go over there and I always, they’d make insist I drink one beer with them. And I’d sit there and drink a beer. And they’d tell me about their life in Germany. Just too under Hitler.

'''Jim:''' Tragic part of history.

'''Int:''' Yeah. Then one day one groves, uh he was a German, he come in that morning and he was so excited. He come over to my desk and he says you must listen, you got to listen, you got to listen. I says okay Mr. Groves, what do you want? He says you don’t know, you don’t know what happened, you don’t know what happened. I said, no what happened? He said the house burnt down next to our house. And I said, well did they get it out? Yeah, but that’s not what’s important, he says, everybody came with foods and clothes and put ‘em in garage and they had a place to sleep that night. He said, that would never happen in Germany. He said in Germany you just take what you had left and leave, but cause everybody turned their back. I said well, that’s America. I mean he was he was just you couldn’t believe the way that man was. And all day that day everybody had to hear about the fire. Not the fire but what happened when the people came with food. You know how they do?

'''Jim:''' Sure.

'''Int:''' They bring food and clothes and anything you had to get the people in the garage someplace to stay over night. And he it was unbelievable to him.

'''Jim:''' That people would help each other at a time of crisis.

'''Int:''' Yeah, yeah, right right. But it his he said in Germany they’d just turn their back. And you’d have to put your things in a cart and leave. And he was excited when he knew that he could buy a house. When his contract was up that he’d be allowed to buy a house.

'''Jim:''' How many Germans do you think were in that a compound you described at the base? '''Int:''' I would say there must have been about forty (40).

'''Jim:''' Okay. They have families with them?

'''Int:''' Yeah.

'''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' After a while they were able to bring the families. They didn’t bring them over right at the beginning. Because they just uh they just took what a few of them brought their had their wives on the airplane, cause it was limited space in that airplane. You know. [[Project Paper Clip]].

'''Jim:''' There has been a lot of speculations about that. Oh I should probably go back over uhm.

'''Int:''' You know how they spent these, those scientist were confined just like as if they were in prison. Over there, and they had to work. And what they did is they in Germany and Berlin and around those areas. Uh there’s tunnels and sewers in the city. And they tunneled from the place uh the labs where they were working, and they tunneled down and they got into the sewer, and then at night they would take one at a time, take turns, and uh put a dummy in the bed and then you’d go through a sewer and they knew how to go their home. And they’d go and they’d be with their wife for a while during the night. And then they’d come back through the sewer. Because they were no allowed to go the their homes and see their wives even. And so that’s the way they lived.

'''Jim:''' Earlier you mentioned uh I don’t even know if I got it on the tape, I know we talked about it before I started. Was it Project Caucasian? (26)

'''Int:''' Yes... That still sticks on me. I, this author that I communicated with, uh I gave him the uh supposedly, a I gave him a word and all things in the government are coded. There is a project so and so and so and so it’s to hide what the project is. Like Blue Book.

'''Jim:''' Right.

'''Int:''' And so this was a project so secret that the paper had to be held and it could not be laid down it had to go right from one person to the other and then back to its original beginning and put in the safe. And everything, and it was named Caucasian. And this project was right after this last in fifty-two (52) it was right after those bodies came to the base. And that was a project and it was so, now I was cleared for Q, and it was so secret that I wasn’t allowed to read the whole thing. I had a very small portion of it I’d say a paragraph that I read and then I had to add another paragraph onto that. And then I had to take it out of my typewriter. I left a piece of carbon paper in the draw and I got in trouble over it. And uh, but it was very secret, to this day I don’t remember what that paragraph was. I remember it was a forwarding paragraph was all I added to it.

'''''End of Side B, Tape 1'''''

'''Jim:''' I never had I never had that kind of a security clearance.

'''Int:''' Yeah. Yeah.

'''Jim:''' But anyhow, what makes you think that Project Caucasian may have been related to the bodies?

'''Int:''' Well it was right after they brought the bodies to the base. And uh, also that I tried to get I tried my boss my direct boss to tell me what it was. And he looked like he was scared.
I mean he looked like he was frightened. And he says June, I can’t talk about it. I mean he would not talk about it, and normally he would tell me anything I wanted to know. I even knew that he had a girl friend.

'''Jim:''' Okay.

'''Int:''' That’s that says a lot.

26 I have not been able to find any reference to Project Caucasian from any source.

'''Jim:''' And if I understand this Q clearance right; if it had been a if it had been your job to work on the atomic bomb, a Q clearance would have gotten you in and out of that place...
'''Int:''' Yeah.
'''Jim:''' In a flat second.
'''Int:''' Right, right, right.
'''Jim:''' So whatever this was it was classified higher...
'''Int:''' Higher than me.
'''Jim:''' Than a Q clearance.
'''Int:''' Yup it had to be. Cause all I was allowed to do was type a forwarding paragraph on to it.
'''Jim:''' Now is um. I’m not totally familiar with all the security classifications. I know there is top, there is secret, top secret.
'''Int:''' There is restricted as your lowest, and then you’re secret and then top secret. And the you go to Q rate —now they have possibly changed all those classifications now then a Q. But at all times when you go to secret and top secret and Q, there are things that you are not allowed to even see. Even though you’re cleared.
'''Jim:''' Because you don’t have a need to know.
'''Int:''' Because you have no need to know. See, this is why I denied some of the officers would come in and ask me for a certain piece of paper. And I’d say why do you want it? And well I’m just interested in it. I’d say that’s not reason. And well I’m a colonel and I want to see that, I demand to see that. Well look go take, go out there take your shirt off, take your uniform, take your coat off hang it up out on a chair, you come back in here and ask for it. And they’d go out and take their jacket off, they come back in and say June, I want to see that paper. And I said, kiss my ass. I said you’re now a civilian you don’t have a uniform on. And you’re not going to get it because you don’t have any reason to have it. Well I got called out a couple times. But my boss, his name is Mr. Rose, and he’d call me in. Cause, of course you know the colonel goes in and tells him you know June, has been uncivil. And so then he’d call me in and say June, what did you do this time? And well I said, what do you mean? Well, well what did you tell colonel so and so? I said I told him just to go chase himself. And he said well uh why why? And I said because he came in and he said he wanted such and such a paper because he was interested in it and I said that was not a good reason. He had no reason; he didn’t show me any papers, reason he should have it or nothin. He said okay, that’s all. Said I want you to know you’ve been reprimanded.
'''Jim:''' I wanted to mention...
'''Int:''' He just laughed.
'''Jim:''' Earlier you mentioned that uh just to kind of convey the idea of what kind of place this was. What did you do with your typewriter ribbons?
'''Int:''' Well, you had, if you, you had typewriter ribbon in your car... In you type writer all the time.
'''Jim:''' Right.
'''Int:''' But anytime that you had top secret, secret or anything else that you typed. You had to take that ribbon out, you had to go in your safe, you had to get a knew tape out that was for that secret stuff. You put that in your machine and while in fact you’ve got two (2) there is two (2) ribbons cause one has to be empty to get the other one, you know. And so you put that in and then you go ahead and type this secret stuff, and then when you are through you take it out and you put it back in its case and you put it back in the safe. Because, they can take a tape, even if it’s used several times and they can take the entire thing that you typed off of that piece of tape. And that’s why the tape was important as the what you were doing. And also your carbon paper. And uh. Woe unto you if you ever left a piece of carbon paper. Because see they’d go through our desk about once a week. You know security, I mean they would go through your desk, and I mean they go through your desk. You know how you flip your lid on you know desks that it’s concealed type writer?
'''Jim:''' Right.
'''Int:''' They even would pull it up to see if maybe a piece of carbon paper or paper had dropped down in there. And you didn’t know it. And some of the girls were careless and they got caught on it. Cause you got a suspension. You know, if you if you uh violate security. And you got you got a suspension. But that’s they were very careful.
'''Jim:''' And you mentioned uh, I know we, you’ve told this to me before I started the tape, and I just wanted to include it because I think it kind of illustrates how you approached your job and what kind of work you did, was that you uh, could you go over again what happened the first government employment you had and the situation with the spy? 27
27 This is another anecdote that I am hoping to explore, but as yet I do not have a source for this type of information.
'''Int:''' Oh. Well the first the first job I had, I was the youngest person that was ever became unit chief for the government. The youngest person they ever had. And I was uh, in forty-two (‘42) I would have been what? Seventeen (17), eighteen (18) years old. And I went to work and in six (6) months I was unit chief. And uh, and uh so. And I had seventeen (17) safes that I was responsible for, well that means, every piece that goes out of there has to be signed for. And you were also responsible for the fact that they had a right to that piece of paper cause at that time there was a war on. And uh, so there was one women that was crippled to this day I know her name and I’m, I’m not going to tell it.
'''Jim:''' I understand that.
'''Int:''' Any way she was crippled. And she was an object of pity. And uh, I mean everybody was very kind to her and very sweet, but being the type of person I was, and the fact I had a responsibility uh I still checked everything that went out. And uh, at the end of the day when I go through my sheet, I’d see who got what and why. And uh, it became apparent to me that she was getting every so many days she was getting a document that had nothing to do with what she was doing. And so I kept closer track on it and finally I realized that she was apparently copying with it there was no other reason. And she was always returning it cause that would draw attention if you didn’t return it. Because at the end of the day everything that went out it had to be in before I left.
'''Jim:''' There had to be an inventory?
'''Int:''' I had to have it and I was responsible for it back. And so I went to the provost marshal, well first I went to my boss, and he said no, to Mr. Rose, and he said no you go straight provost marshal and I explained what uh, that I felt was happening. And he started, well take care of it. Well, the next day when I came to work they were hauling out her desk, they asked me to come to work early the next day, so I went early, and uh, they asked me is this the desk that this lady works at? Yes. And so then they taped the desk up with sort of a masking type thing all the way around. Then he took it out and they found that she had copied that entire thing and she only had a few pages to go. And it was the entire uh, theater of operations for the ------------------theater, that’s what it was. And she did get twenty (20) years in jail. Cause she actually was a spy actually. And uh, well aside from this I’ll tell you what happened after this. I guess I’ve never told you. Uh, well she was being incarcerated before she came to trial. I went I was going home one night and uh, there was a car I got off the bus and I had to go down a dark street to go home. I had to go two (2) blocks to go home down a street and over a street. And uh, there was a dark car there, and I just saw the car didn’t thing anything of it. The next night I went home and there was a car there again. And I heard the man in the car say that’s the girl. And I and it sort of scared so I picked up my feet and I left faster than usual and went home. So the next day I went back to the provost marshal’s office and I told them what, what had happened. And he says all right tonight you do the same as you exactly do and we’re going to give you a whistle. So they gave me this whistle. They said now if you feel threatened why you use this whistle. But don’t worry you’ll be protected. So I got off the bus and I started walking down the street and when I did that car that was sitting there started to move forward toward me, and there was FBI cars came out of every drive way on that street. And the surrounded that car, and they told me go straight home. And I never knew anything after that. Never nothing.
'''Jim:''' And this was in wartime?
'''Int:''' Yep.
'''Jim:''' So obviously they so the people in that car got arrested and taken away.
'''Int:''' Without a doubt without a doubt. But the way we went in it... That was scary.
'''Jim:''' That is scary.
'''Int:''' That was scary. The white ca... And I just say wonder why they give me that whistle. I guess it was to reassure me or something.
'''Jim:''' Well knowing what I know about...
'''Int:''' Cause they didn’t tell me they were going to be there. But they came they came out of
garages.
'''Jim:''' That was probably a case...
'''Int:''' Those cars came out of garages. They was in driveways, came out of drive ways and garages. I’m telling you, you never saw so many cars in your life.
'''Jim:''' That was probably just in case their plan didn’t work. And somehow the car got by them. '''Int:''' Oh, is that right.
'''Jim:''' I’m just guessing, I’m just trying to think if I was running an operation like that.
'''Int:''' Cause, there was no sign of them, I knew every car that was on that street. And uh, people didn’t park in the street at all. And that’s why it upset me when I saw it the first night. And uh, of course we had been warned about uh, some of the girls went home at night you know, I was on that four (4) to twelve (12) shift. And they were being bothered when they go home. And so we’d been told uh, to just be careful what we’re doing when we get out and just go straight home. Always, but uh. That was, that was interesting.
'''Jim:''' And if I understood it what you said, because of the work, obviously the good work, that you had done turning this person in that helped you get you next job?
'''Int:''' Yep, both times when I went back both times. I...I...would...I...like I say I went in the back door. In other words I called up somebody and they and I told them I wanted to come back to work. Because these people drift around from jobs in the same area you know. And I said I wanted to come back to work, and so the would put a requisition in for me before I applied for the job. And so when I’d go make the application I automatically went to where they wanted me to go. And so I’d get my jobs that I got. And un so...
'''Jim:''' And I’m guessing too that unless, I can’t imagine that it’s changed that much between then and now, in order to get a security clearance. Especially a high one, that means that somebody has to go out and investigate your background.
'''Int:''' Yeah. Well you have the right to see your security clearance. Cause before, when you get the job in fact one of these evens says subject to security clearance. And uh, they put when they at that when the war was on they had to hire everybody and the security couldn’t move that fast. But then after you were in the job a very short time they had a full roster on you. I’ve seen men taken out, off the job in hand cuffs, because they lied and then they caught ‘em and when they...
'''Jim:''' That hasn’t changed.
'''Int:''' Yeah. And very surprising sometimes who’d get put in hand cuffs. And uh, they would uh, we were allowed to go down and look at our file. And like they said, us gals we used to get a kick out of it, cause they could they said you go down and look in your file and they’ll tell you who you slept with a week ago. And they had they had even letters in their from my first grade teacher.
'''Jim:''' So, obviously the reason I’m mentioning this, in the light of everything else that we’ve talked about. The reason I wanted to mention this is to point out that they don’t give that kind of a clearance to just anybody.
'''Int:''' No.
'''Jim:''' And if you were unstable or prone to making up things or anything else, you would have never gotten a Q clearance?
'''Int:''' Never. No. Cause in those days you could be at that time even if there was even an idea that you were homosexual you were a security clearance, or you were a security risk.
'''Jim:''' A security risk. Sure.
'''Int:''' See and now days they wouldn’t dare say that you was a risk. But uh, just anything at all and even a member of your family that was questionable could keep you from getting being cleared. And if you couldn’t get cleared then you they had to find another job someplace else for you. And uh, that’s the way it worked. I did I bet today they don’t check that closely.
'''Jim:''' I’m not so sure about that. I know a couple of people that who have been put through that kind of a wringer. And uh, some of those rules still apply.
'''Int:''' Oh do they?
'''Jim:''' Yeah, cause I know someone who got appointed during Desert Storm to uh, be VIP security for some of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And I’m sure that his security clearance, in fact he told me that during part of his duty he had a permit to carry a concealed weapon in the White House, and they don’t give that to anybody.
'''Int:''' No.
'''Jim:''' You know that’s, that’s gettin way up there.
'''Int:''' Yeah. He’s pretty close to the President.
'''Jim:''' Well he was guarding people who you know were on the Joint Chiefs of Staff. '''Int:''' Yeah.
'''Jim:''' And I don’t that’s why I’m bring that in here because I don’t think that the way that they do security clearances is changed that much. They check everything about you. Maybe like you said, maybe being homosexual wouldn’t keep you out now, but it they thought that you were un... You know anything about you that would make you unstable or you had a criminal history or you were a drunkard or narcotics or whatever that would keep you out of a security clearance.
'''Int:''' Well, that’s what I say Jim, I lead a very clean life and I always have. I’m a fighter, believe I’m a fighter, and I go and I go I believe in the truth. And I don’t like when I think somebody is trying to pull something on me. And this is why I run these crooks out of here. In seventy-nine (‘79) I run ‘em out. It took me four (4) years, but I run those crooks out a here. At Ocean Groves Inc. And I run ‘em out. I had help, I had Valdez attorney and I had Ron Lewis the two (2) of them. But like they said gees you got more goddamn guts than anybody I ever knew. Because that was partially Mafia. Because they were threatened for all these lots that that one guy owned.
'''Jim:''' I heard about that.
'''Int:''' That Mafia guy owned see. That-----------Smith. Yea
'''Jim:''' I never heard the name but I’ve heard parts of the story over the years.
'''Int:''' Yeah, but uh they were funneling that money the eleven thousand (11,000) years (sic) somebody. And uh, so I got on the case and I got rid of them. And uh, they then now I’m after these guys out here. And then I’m going after city hall. There is something going on in our city, right now, I swear there is. It makes me sick. Makes me sick. Okay, well I went off fishin.
'''Jim:''' Yeah, well I can delete that part out. Let’s stick to UFO’s
'''Int:''' Yeah right. Yeah. But the feeling is Jim; people at least given people are skeptics. They say oh, I’ve never seen a UFO and no such thing. How many of those people go out and stand outside at on a look for clear nights to go watch the sky? Now I do. When there’s a clear night I’m really happy, cause I can turn all the lights out. And with my eyesight, even though I’m legally blind, I see I’ll show you how I see. I’ve never showed this...
'''Jim:''' Here I’ve got paper.
'''Int:''' I’ll just show you. See I have brain damage, the left I see through the left peripheral the right side of my brain has been damaged. And so instead of seeing with my whole eye I only see with this much. I just have this little window and when I sit here looken at you I’m looken at it’s not that I can’t look you in the eye. It’s that I can’t see you if I look in the eye. I look at your left ear, and then I can see your whole face. Now I can’t see your body and I can’t see your arms but I can see you face. And so even with that much vision I can go out here at night and I can watch those satellites go over. Cause there’s two (2) that I that my favorites I see ones going this way and ones going that way. And uh, I’ve seen some strange things up there. But uh, being skeptical like I was taught by the engineers and stuff. I wouldn’t say they were UFO’s because they didn’t have all the elements that they should have to be UFO’s.
'''Jim:''' Exactly.
'''Int:''' I mean they have to have it all. You can’t have one (1) or two (2), you can’t say well it’s
blinking. Or is it just got a light coming down cause you’re talking about a helicopter.
'''Jim:''' Right, it could be any number of things.
'''Int:''' It could be anything, could be an airplane, and un,
'''Jim:''' Well I try to be skeptical too and I think it’s important to be able to explain those things that could be readily explained, but the problem is and that’s one of the reasons why you know I’m grateful for the opportunity to talk to you. Is that it’s not just you it’s so very many people.
'''Int:''' Yeah.
'''Jim:''' And if you take all of the stories of people like you who have significant, you know,
something significant, in their life that is related to this subject and you add it all together.
'''Int:''' You come up with a picture finally.
'''Jim:''' Exactly. And it doesn’t add up to falling dummies.
'''Int:''' No.
'''Jim:''' You know that. It just doesn’t do it.
'''Int:''' In the first, first place let me show you something about this picture.
'''Jim:''' Is this the news photo with them...
'''Int:''' Yeah. Yeah.
'''Jim:''' The two (2) men standing arm, arm in arm with the dummy?
'''Int:''' Now that’s an articulated dummy.
'''Jim:''' Okay.
'''Int:''' We didn’t have articulated dummies in those days. We just had a dummy, and it wouldn’t had any features like this on it cause if those are features that’s plastic.
'''Jim:''' That’s a point.
'''Int:''' And look how they got his arms over here and his hands and all this. Well, there’s no necessity on a regular dummy of that anyway. You know it if you want to know I would say this is a man.
'''Jim:''' Hum...
'''Int:''' That’s too articulated. Look at his knees.
'''Jim:''' I know. The knees are a little too realistic. '''Int:''' Yeah.
'''Jim:''' I was going to ask you something...
'''Int:''' Look at look at
'''Jim:''' Somebody brought up this point...
'''Int:''' Look at look at his crotch. Look at his crotch. '''Jim:''' Uh-hum.
'''Int:''' It doesn’t look very suspicious?
'''Jim:''' Yeah.
'''Int:''' Right?
'''Jim:''' Do you do you think they would uh in areas where they testing or where they had materials. Or was that at the time when you were in the Parachute Division, and you know these were extremely important projects to uh our defense effort. Would they let people smoke around those things? Did it matter? Did they pay attention to that?
'''Int:''' No they never paid much attention to that.
'''Jim:''' Okay, cause this is back in the day when everybody smoked... '''Int:''' Yeah.
'''Jim:''' Okay.
'''Int:''' But most of those guys didn’t smoke. You know they just didn’t smoke, I think partially they just didn’t because there was gasoline right off and there was chemicals. Most of them I don’t remember many of them smoken, cause they used to get on my butt all the time because I smoked. And then when I’d go out with them to the drop zone or something, they’d tell me leave your cigarettes here because you can’t smoke out there.
'''Jim:''' And if I were if just to cause we are doing a tape here. As I recall they got the one man here standing here with a cigarette in his right hand.
'''Int:''' Right.
'''Jim:''' Uh, there’s a number of things that bother me here.
'''Int:''' Well, the dummy is what bothers me. It could very easily be a man or else or a man and it’s a retouched photo.
'''Jim:''' Well that’s possible too.
'''Int:''' Cause why would they have it a plastic thing on a person? Because plastic is not soft like a persons face. And the real dummies never had faces. They were just a rag dolls. They were just big rag dolls. And they at that time they didn’t need it because they knew all they knew how to kill because they did it with people. They did it with people, real people.
'''Jim:''' When they were testing parachutes?
'''Int:''' Yeah. And they knew where they got injured, and they knew why they got injured. And if they didn’t up their parachute right, well they got dragged then they take all the skin off of them.
'''Jim:''' And obviously, they must have known an awful lot about parachutes because... 
'''Int:''' In fifty -one (51)...
'''Jim:''' Yes.
'''Int:''' They knew everything there was to know about parachutes.
'''Jim:''' Well, I would imagine because you can’t drop a bulldozer out of the sky...
'''Int:''' Let me tell you about knowin about, what they knew about parachutes. When we was in World War II we dropped quite a few troops into areas. Well in each pack backpack there was a shovel, do you know what the shovel looked like? No you...
'''Jim:''' Like an entrenching tool?
'''Int:''' Yeah, yeah. You know it sort of folded. 
'''Jim:''' Right.
'''Int:''' Okay, that was the pack was on their back and that shovel was right here. Well when the guys were sitting in the airplane, their head would hit it. And so what they did was they took that shovel out and the stuck it down the front, in their parachute straps. When they jumped out of the airplane and they when you land from a parachute you’re supposed to do this with your knees...
'''Jim:''' Bend your knees, right.
'''Int:''' And I had to I had to go through the whole damn class my self. Any way you’re knees they’re springs, they act as springs. And when they did that and they come down this end of the shovel, since it was just through a strap. Hit here and took his head off.
'''Jim:''' And kill him.
'''Int:''' Right.
'''Jim:''' Cause they didn’t follow their instructions.
'''Int:''' Yes, and so we got the UR’s because of all these men that were beheaded. And so they the engineers went out and the figured out what it was. And they said it they have to be instructed not to move that shovel. But they killed a lot of men; they killed a lot of men. And I still tear up yet to this day, because I can remember those men, those fighters those guys would sit and cry. You know when they got those UR’s from dead men, from dead men. Dead men. And they took it to heart until they realized what caused it. Now this was not their fault.
'''Jim:''' Right, because somebody was doing what they were not supposed to.
'''Int:''' Except for one thing they didn’t write the TO they should have had in the TO: Do not remove the shovel. See TO is a technical order, and that is a stor... That is a complete story on every little thing that you do. Now when we dropped a D-4 dozer I took all that dictation from Major Hyde and went through the whole process, every movement that was made to pack those things were was written in that TO, and when we were testing it and doing it, we put eggs, eggs, not boiled eggs, live eggs, you know, around on that thing to see, because it had to be that they didn’t crack those eggs. That’s how precise that had to be. So when that dozer dropped it was operable (sic) when it hit the ground.
'''Jim:''' So a man could jump on it and start it up and drive away.
'''Int:''' Right. And so the TO was uh when I when he would say we are doing so and so, so and so, so and so, I worked for I don’t know weeks on that project taking that up, writing it up and then I’d go type it up and then he’d (sic) go and correct it. And you know we would go through the whole thing until it was completed. And that’s the kind of work that I did. And uh, so I had to be I had to be there, and I had to be curious. And I had to be interested.
'''Jim:''' I think that one of the things that stands out most to me in talking to you about all this. Is that although we are talking about a long time ago...
'''Int:''' It’s like it was yesterday. '''Jim:''' You know a lot of details.
'''Int:''' Yeah.
'''Jim:''' And so to me the UFO part of this, you haven’t lost anything and you don’t seem to have embellished anything. Because you told me part of this four (4) years ago, and I’m hearing more now but it’s still the same story.
'''Int:''' Yes. Well if you tell the truth you don’t have to worry about it. '''Jim:''' That’s the point. That’s exactly the point.
'''Int:''' I don’t think I’ve changed my story.
'''Jim:''' And I, and I wanted to go over one thing because you mentioned it, and I don’t want to pry into your medical history it’s not really important here. But you mentioned brain damage in relation to your eyesight. Is that from an accident or...
'''Int:''' It was a doctor that said I was hysterical I went to the doctor and he said I was hysterical and I was bleeding. And I got sicker and sicker, and I went on vacation in South Carolina and I collapsed and I went into a coma and uh, he was a uh gynecologist, so he should have known, I went into a tubal pregnancy it ruptured and I was bleeding to death. And they said five (5) more minutes and I would have been dead. And when I came to four (4) days later then the surgeon is sittin by my bed and he’s asking me a bunch of
questions and everything. And he says everyday you know I was twenty-nine (29) years old. He said every day you live from now on. It’s one day on borrowed time. So I’m seventy-two (72) years old.
'''Jim:''' Well you’ve done pretty darn well. But the point is I want to make it clear. It’s obvious this hasn’t impaired you judgement.
'''Int:''' No.
'''Jim:''' Or your reason...
'''Int:''' No.
'''Jim:''' Or your memory...
'''Int:''' No. It just took away part of my eyesight.
'''Jim:''' Okay.
'''Int:''' Um
'''Jim:''' Because we all know that that’s, there are those people that try if they can’t discredit the facts
'''Int:''' Yeah.
'''Jim:''' They try to go after the person. And the documents that I have seen since I have been sitting here tonight. I mean there is no War Department now. And a significant portion of the documents you’ve shown me say War Department on them.
'''Int:''' Yeah.
'''Jim:''' And you look at the typing you look at the paper, I mean, these are the real thing. '''Int:''' These are real.
'''Jim:''' I also want to point out that a long time ago in my training I had read about a taking type writer ribbons. If you were going in on a fraud case, or doing a search warrant course now it’s all different, because everybody uses computers and printers, so it’s a whole different problem. But if you were going and you were seizing a typewriter as evidence, I remember being taught always secure the ribbon.
'''Int:''' Right. Right.
'''Jim:''' Cause I know the FBI crime lab; that’s one of the things that they are able to do.
'''Int:''' Oh yeah. Well I could read it. If I saw a new piece of ribbon I could take it and show, I could read it. It the first time it went through a typewriter. You could read every word that’s been written.
'''Jim:''' Is there any more coffee?
'''Int:''' Sure, I think there’s more.
'''Jim:''' Since we are talking about that. Just to kind of go over the same ground one more time. Uh what is it that bothered you the most about the story of the falling dummies?
'''Int:''' Well in the first place if they really test the falling dummies, they have to test ‘em with a parachute. And you tell me that a person would see a dummy attached to a parachute and wouldn’t know it was a dummy? This is what bothers me. Because a dummy cannot dump his own parachute. He can’t disconnect his parachute. It takes a human to do that.
'''Jim:''' That’s a manual release.
'''Int:''' And then on top of the picture, I would almost be able to feel that that’s a touched up photo, or else it’s an actual person inside of a suit. And the plastic face gives it away because the dummies never had faces.
'''Jim:''' And I know we’re just guessing because we don’t know what is going on in their minds to put out a story like this. But why now, I mean they’ve come out in the past and said first as I recall it was a classified balloon project.
'''Int:''' Uh-huh.
'''Jim:''' And the next one was it was a classified balloon project that had microphones to listen to the Soviet Union in case they were testing bombs. And now suddenly we’ve got dummies falling out of para...falling off balloons, with parachutes.
'''Int:''' Uh-huh, or did they come to see the craft there and they saw these dummies by it? Is that what they are trying to tell us. Well what was that craft then? What was that craft that those dummies were by?
'''Jim:''' And why now?
'''Int:''' Yeah why tell us...
'''Jim:''' Why now? Why now are they telling us this. Why couldn’t they have told us this fifty (50) years ago or thirty (30) years ago.
'''Int:''' Yeah, well to make to make me out a liar and say I’m not sayin what I’m sayin I would have to see some papers from the parachute branch, cargo unit, signed by Mr. Valasic— Frank L Valasic. Who was my boss and he was a project engineer of the Aerobee rocket program, I would have to see those actual papers that I personally wrote, and my initials are down in the corner JC and I if they say if they can prove this story of this parachute with the dummies, then let me see the papers that I wrote at the same time about the Aerobee rocket.
'''Jim:''' Exactly.
'''Int:''' Right.
'''Jim:''' Cause I think that’s the bottom line. They’re just not telling the truth. '''Int:''' Not telling the truth.
'''Jim:''' And below that, what are they covering up?
'''Int:''' Like I say, I probably am the sole survivor of the Parachute Branch. And uh, that’s what they’re trying to say is that these are parachutes, and I was there. And I’m seventy-two (72) years old and it’s time to tell a story.
'''Jim:''' I think you’ve done that. And this is an amazing story.
'''Int:''' It was fun. '''Jim:''' That too.

END SIDE C, TAPE 2 —END OF INTERVIEW—TRANSCRIPTION BY MARY F. SULLIVAN.

==Resume of James E Clarkson.==
James E. Clarkson
E-MAIL GHMUFON@SEANET.COM · PHONE (360) 532-8118 1308 ARNOLD ST. / P.O. BOX 2047 · ABERDEEN, WASHINGTON 98520
OBJECTIVE
To demonstrate my qualifications to investigate disclosures made by June Crain Based on professional and educational background.

===EXPERIENCE===
1979 – 1999 Aberdeen Police Department Aberdeen, WA
Detective Sergeant
* Numerous Letters of Commendation for Quality of Investigations during 20-Year Career.
* Supervisor, Fatal Accident Investigation Unit. Completed Basic, Advanced and Technical Accident Investigation Schools from the Washington State Patrol.
* Certified as a First Line Supervisor by Washington State Criminal Justice Training Commission (WSCJTC).
* Extensive Training in Crime Scenes, Criminal Profiling, and other subjects from WSCJTC and other educational institutions.
* Liaison with FBI and other Federal and State Agencies.
* Presentations to community groups directed at preventing Fraud
against Senior Citizens
* Employee of the Quarter twice; selected as an Officer of the Year in 1997 by the Washington State Council of Police Officers.
* Field Training Officer; Police Explorer Scout Advisor.
* Treasurer – Aberdeen Police Officer’s Guild for 8 years.
1977 – 1979 Thurston County Sheriff’s Office Olympia, WA
Correctional Officer
* Compiled Statistics and completed FBI Uniform Crime Report as well as regular duties of a Correctional Officer.
Reserve Deputy Sheriff
* Solo patrol in unincorporated areas of one of the fastest growing counties in the nation. 1974 – 1977

===Resume of James E Clarkson.===
EDUCATION
* Internal Affairs
* VIP Security
Grays Harbor College
Full Time Student (Since January 2000)
Past Formal Education

===INTERESTS===
* 1969 – 1971 University of California. Undergraduate Studies in the field of Ecology. No degree.
* 1964 – 1969 Lick-Wilmerding College Preparatory School in San Francisco, CA. Graduated First Honors.
* State Section Director, Mutual UFO Network, since 1988. Investigates reports based upon information from the National UFO Reporting Center in Seattle, WA and information from local emergency service dispatchers.
* Investigated Crash Retrieval Case from November 25, 1979 near Elk River in Grays Harbor County, WA. Involved multiple witness interviews, military security zone and subsequent Government denial.
* Currently investigating the background of former civilian employee of Wright-Patterson AFB (1942–1952) who made significant disclosures related to Government concealment and investigation of crashed UFO’s with non-human bodies. Participated in conference hosted by Dr. Robert Wood and Ryan Wood because of this investigation. Participated in filming of recreated events from employee’s recollection.
US Army MP Investigations Fort Lewis, WA
MP Investigator
* Army Commendation Medal for Quality of Investigations and Dedication to Duty.
 * Currently a full-time student with in the field of Small Business/ Entrepreneurship.
Part-Time Student (1990 – 1991)
* Graduated March 1991 with Associates Degree in General Studies.
Aberdeen, WA
 63

Resume of James E Clarkson, concluded.
* Conducts public lectures since 1993 on the subject of Ufology for the purpose of educating the public emphasizing the subject’s history, complexity, and significance.
* Other interests include: Photography (Digital and 35 mm).
* Proficiency in MS Office. Uses home computer / Internet on a daily basis to further UFO knowledge, satisfy curiosity about many subjects and to assist home-based business.
* Improving health via alternatives.
* Searching for knowledge and experience that might lead to an understanding of a higher reality than what our physical senses yield to our perception.
 64

ORDER FORM
Majic Eyes Only: Earth’s Encounters with ET Technology (320pgs-hardback) ($30).... QTY_____ DVD of “The Secret” as Seen on Sci-Fi Channel ($18)..................................... QTY_____ Majestic Documents Book (190 pages) ($18).................................................... QTY_____ CD “The Secret” Authenticity of MJ Documents ($5)......................................... QTY_____ SOM1-01-ET Technology Recovery and Disposal ($5)..................................... QTY_____ 1st Annual Conference Proceedings (227pages) ($35)..................................... QTY_____ CD Audio Set of 1st UFO Crash Retrieval Conf ($160)..................................... QTY_____ 2nd Annual Conference Proceedings (251 pages) ($35)................................... QTY_____ DVD Set of 2nd UFO Crash Retrieval Conf ($240)............................................ QTY_____
$__________ $__________ $ __________ $__________ $__________ $__________ $__________ $__________ $__________
$_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________
$_____________ $__________ $__________
$_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________
$_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________ $_____________
$__________
$__________
Individual DVD’s of 2nd Crash Con Speakers ($20)
Nick Redfern – Crashed UFOs – Worldwide History................................................................ Jim Marrs – The Very First UFO Crash Retrieval 1896?.......................................................... Don Ledger – Shag Harbor Incident........................................................................................ Peter Robbins – Brentwaters/ Woodbridge............................................................................. Linda Moulton Howe – US Policy of Denial In the Interest of National Security...................... Grant Cameron – The Presidents Hard Evidence (both parts)................................................ Stephen Bassett – A Message to President Elect – Truth Retrieval........................................ Dr. Robert Wood – Correlating Leonard Stringfield’s Crash Reports...................................... Paul Davids – The Road to Roswell – Undisputed facts and Factual Disputes....................... Dr. David Pace – Inside the USSR Majestic 12 Program......................................................... Ryan Wood - Murder and Majestic 12 – Investigation of UFO Related Deaths....................... Various Presenters: three 30 minute contributed talks: Paul Kimball: Crash at Aztec; Chuck Wade: Debris from Plains UFO crash; Ron Regehr: Ramey Office photographs.........
QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______
QTY_______ 3rd Annual Conference Proceedings (200 pages) ($35)................................... QTY_____ DVD Set of 3rd UFO Crash Retrieval Conf ($240/set)...................................... QTY_____
Individual DVD’s of 3rd Crash Con Speakers ($20/each)
Dr. Robert Wood- Examination of Reverse Engineering Claims.............................................. Dr. Tom Valone – UFO Energy & Antigravity Systems............................................................. Speaker Panel Moderated by Stephen Bassett....................................................................... Dr. Roger Leir – The Varginha Brazil UFO crash..................................................................... Linda Moulton Howe –1953, DRES, Millard County, UT Crash............................................... Nick Redfern – Big Thicket, TX Crash & 1953 Kingman AZ crash.......................................... Richard Dolan – Sociological & Political Implications of Disclosure........................................ Chuck Zukowski, Debbie Ziegelmeyer – Roswell Archeological Dig Results.......................... Reme Baca – San Antonio, NM 1945 UFO Crash.................................................................. Jim Marrs – Keynote – Will Rocket Engines Go The Way Of The Dodos?............................. Ryan Wood –New Book – Majic Eyes Only............................................................................. Peter Robbins – Orgone Energy & Wilhelm Reich & UFOs.................................................... Dr. Roger Leir – Analysis of Metal Fragments from UFO........................................................ Bill Hamilton – The Case for Reverse Engineering................................................................. Ken Storch – Arizona 1998 Landed UFO, Military & Murder...................................................
Individual DVD’s of 4th Crash Con Speakers ($20/each)
Stanton Friedman - The UFO “Why” Questions.......................................................................
Dr. Michael Salla – The Covert World of UFO Crash Retrievals...............................................
Richard Dolan – UFO Crash Retrievals: Leaks and Secrecy...................................................
Paul Schatzkin – Defying Gravity: Material on T. Townsend Brown......................................... QTY_______ Ryan Wood – The Devils Hole UFO Crash Retrieval................................................................QTY_______ Peter Merlin – How the Government Responds to Top Secret Crashes.................................. QTY_______ Michael Lindemann – Scenarios of Contact............................................................................. QTY_______ George Knapp – TV Journalist’ Perspective on Ufology........................................................... QTY_______ Robert M. Wood, Ph.D. – Alien Viruses and Leaked Documents............................................. QTY_______ Nick Redfern – Crashed UFO’s and Bio-Warfare..................................................................... QTY_______ Frank Feshino – The Braxton County Monster......................................................................... QTY_______ Linda Moulton Howe – Military Voices: Firsthand Testimonies................................................. QTY_______ Dr. Bruce Maccabee – December 6, 1950 UFO Crash Retrieval............................................. QTY_______ Matthew E. Thuney – The Lummi Island Incident.................................................................... QTY_______
1st Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Audio Tape Set (2003) ($160).... QTY_____ Shipping and Handling ($8.00)................................................................................................ Total Paid.............
Please Print and Send Check, Money Order or Credit Card Info
Name: ______________________________________________________________________________ Address: _______________________________ City: _________________ State: _____ Zip: _________ Phone: Work______________________________ Home _____________________________________ Fax: ____________________________ Email: ______________________________________________
(Circle) Visa/MasterCard Number: _______ - _______ - ________ - ________ Expires: ______/________ Security Code on back of card __ __ __
Signature: __________________________________________________________
QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______
QTY_______ QTY_______ QTY_______
11