ParaNet BBS/sagan
From KB42
ParaNet BBS/sagan
| File Name: | sagan.txt |
|---|---|
| Author: | Unknown |
| Date: | Unknown |
| Posting BBS: | Unknown |
| BBS Main Page: | ParaNet Main Page |
| Key Words: | ParaNet, UFO, Ufology |
(2239) Thu 12 Nov 92 1:30p Rcvd: Thu 12 Nov 3:27p Cost: 0
By: Uucp, ParaNet(sm) Information Servi (1:104/422)
To: Michael Corbin
Re: Sagan
St: Pvt Kill Rcvd
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Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 09:37:53 BDB
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Comments: Resent-From: Roberto F Silvestre <SILVESTR@BRUFU>
Comments: Originally-From: "NAME \"Robert E. McElwaine\""
<MCELWRE@uwec.bitnet>
From: Roberto F Silvestre <SILVESTR@BRUFU.BITNET>
Subject: UFO EVIDENCE VS. Carl Sagan
To: Multiple recipients of list UFO-L <UFO-L@BRUFPB.BITNET>
Status: R
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
UFO EVIDENCE VS. Carl Sagan
I watched all of Dr. Carl Sagan's updated "Cosmos"
programs on PBS during summer 1991. In one of them, he STILL
maintains that there is no physical evidence for UFO
Spacecraft, "just stories".
I should think that by now he would have heard about the
Roswell Incident in which UFO WRECKAGE and ALIEN BODIES were
found on a ranch (in New Mexico, I think), gathered up by the
U.S. military, and hidden away in an Air Force hanger
somewhere. The wreckage included materials NOT KNOWN on
Earth, and some of it even had ALIEN SYMBOLS written on it.
All of this was witnessed by many People, both civilian and
military. A couple of years ago, the TV program "Unsolved
Mysteries" showed an excellent segment about the incident.
The Roswell Incident illustrates a serious problem here.
Whenever there IS physical evidence of a UFO Spacecraft, the
military always confiscates it, using "national security" as
an excuse, and then ACTS LIKE THE MAFIA toward the finders
and other witnesses by THREATENING them if they don't keep
silent! (They did it to the rancher in the Roswell
Incident.)
I wonder if Carl Sagan has been pressured by the
government into continuing to make negative public statements
about UFO's. It's too bad that so many people accept his
pronouncements without question. He may very well be another
case of THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND.
This is supposed to be a FREE country. FREEDOM OF
SPEECH is guaranteed by the highest law of the land. The
government (and its military) is supposed to be of, by, and
for The People, NOT the other way around. People need to
know THE TRUTH about EVERYTHING in order to intelligently
participate in the democratic process. It is an ORGANIZED
CRIME for the government to withhold or suppress information
and physical evidence of UFO's from us.
UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED.
Robert E. McElwaine
B.S., Physics and Astronomy, UW-EC
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(7413) Wed 17 Mar 93 8:42p
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: Sagan & Ufo's - 1/6
St:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/26.1@fidonet.org 26145ae9
@PID: FM 2.02
Found this while looking through Dan Brown's list the other day..in light
of the recent Carl Sagan 'Parade Magazine' article and having just
read Vince Johnson's HUFON post, I thought it appropo to post this
as a perspective piece. This comes from 1987 and is from Rick Dell'aquilla.
Courtesy of "Gates of Delirium" BBS
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Captured from CLEVELAND FREENET, October 10, 1987
OVERVIEW AND REWRITE OF PREVIOUS UFO RELATED UPLOADS
[Rick Dell'aquilla]
Astronomer Dr. Carl Sagan, the acknowledged guru of
professional UFO "skeptics", has been quoted as saying,
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Another
of the better known of these professional UFO skeptics, Phil
Klass, has admitted the possibility of intelligent life
elsewhere than planet Earth, although he finds no convincing
evidence that UFO phenomena indicate visitation to Earth by
alien intelligence.
In his book, COSMOS, Dr. Sagan postulates a formula that
suggests that many, perhaps most, stars have planets, and that
the number of potentialy technologically advanced civilizations
in the Milky Way galaxy can be estimated by the formula:
N* X fp X ne X f1 X fi X fe X fL = N,
Where:
N* is the number of stars in our galaxy (about 400 billion)
fp is the fraction of stars with planetary systems (about 1/3)
ne is the number of planets per system suitable for life (2)
f1 is the fraction of the suitable planets on which
life actually arises (about 1/3)
fi is the fraction of inhabited planets on which intelligence
evolved and
fe the fraction of inhabited planets on which a technical
civilization developed (fi X fe = 1/100) and
fL is the fraction of a planetary lifetime over which the
technical civilization survived. (< .0000001%)
Dr. Sagan's computation indicates that N ( the number of extant
technical civilizations in our Milky Way galaxy is about Ten Million
(10,000,000). This means that even though only .0025% of the stars in
the Milky Way have technologically adavanced civilizations, there are
about Ten Million (10,000,000) such civilizations in our galaxy.
Dr. Sagan's estimate of 10,000,000 inhabited and technologically
advanced planets in our one galaxy, of, course, does not in and of
itself prove that UFO phenomena represent a manifestation of any one of
them. However, it does indicate that in dealing with matters of such
magnitude, even assuming a "low probability", (in this case, .0025%)
there remains an astoundingly large number of potentially inhabited and
highly developed civilizations in our part of the universe.
Highly unusual, startling, and completely credible documentation
concerning UFOs has been disclosed under the Federal Freedom of
Information Act (FOIA), is a statute by which citizens may compel the
government to release certain documents. This documentation (7000
pages approx.) has been obtained by litigation with such agencies as
the FBI, CIA, NSA, USAF, etc.). Much information is still being
withheld from the public and remains to be disclosed, since the bulk of
these documents have not been released by the government, under the
"National Security" exemption in the statute. In view of the
extraordinary revelations contained in these documents, there may be
very much more, and even more disturbing, information yet to be
revealed.
The authenticity of the documents is not arguable, since they have
been released directly from the federal agency involded to the U.S.
District Courts.
Among the UFO cases established by the official documentary evidence
is the Bentwaters sighting of a few years ago. RAF
Woodbridge/Bentwaters are two adjacent USAF bases (Strategic Air
Command) on land in Eastern England leased by the U.S. Air Force from
Great Britain. As such, these are high security installation and
storage sites for nuclear weapons.
<< cont >>
--- FMail 0.92
* Origin: * On Topic? What's that? <*> Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:123/26.1)
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(7414) Wed 17 Mar 93 8:43p
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: Sagan & Ufo's - 2/6
St:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/26.1@fidonet.org 26145aea
@PID: FM 2.02
<< cont from last >>
Over the Christmas season of 1980, several British newspapers carried
banner headlines of a unique UFO report, unique in the sense that the
information was obtained through an OFFICIAL USAF DOCUMENT RELEASED
UNDER THE FOIA. The report was prepared by the second in command of
the base, Lt. Col Charles I. Halt, a trained observer with a military
career he presumably would not wish to place in jeapordy with
outlandish or otherwise unsubstantiated UFO claims. Yet, can one
explain the fact that he has never retracted a word of the following
report, was never reprimanded for making a false report, and indeed,
was later promoted to Brig. General?
The report states:
"1. Early in the morning of 27 Dec 80 (approximately 0300L), two
USAF security policemen saw unusual lights outside the back
gate at RAF Woodbridge. Thinking an aircraft might have
crashed or been forced down, they called for permission to go
outside the gate to investigate. The on-duty chief responded
and allowed three patrolmen to proceed on foot. The
individuals reported seeing a strange glowing object in the
forest. The object was described as being metallic in
appearance and triangular in shape, approximately two to three
meters across the base and approximately two meters high. It
illuminated the entire forest with a white light. The object
itself had a pulsing red light on top and a bank(s) of blue
lights underneath. The object was hovering or on legs. As
the patrolmen approached the object, it maneuvered through the
trees and disappeared. At this time the animals on a nearby
farm went into a frenzy. The object was briefly sighted
approximately an hour later near the back gate.
2. The next day, three depressions 1 1/2" deep and 7" in diameter
were found where the object had been sighted on the ground.
The following night (29 Dec 80) the area was checked for
radiation. Beta/gamma readings of 0.1 milliroentgens were
recorded with peak readings in the three depressions and near
the center of the triangle foRAGRAPHS 2 AND 3. (Emphasis
added.)
(Signed)
Charles I. Halt, Lt. Col, USAF
Deputy Base Commander
Moreover, in a 1984 CNN documentary on the Bentwaters case, current
and former USAF security personnel independently confirmed the contents
of the Halt report. A former military policeman, "Airman Gregg,"
stated, " I saw some kind of spaceship from someplace not of this
Earth." A former Master Sgt., who was part of the team that
investigated the landing site, said the team found three depressions in
the soil, 12 feet apart, in an equilateral triangle. One officer who
is still on active duty with the USAF corroborated these statements and
added that motion pictures and still photographs of the site were also
taken. (denied by the USAF.)
Lt. Col. Halt ordered a hightened state of alert for the following
night, on which night a four-man perimiter patrol reported seeing
strange lights in the sky outside the back gate that, "were unlike the
pattern of any known aircraft." They requested and were given
permission to investigate.
They found that an INTENSE light was eminating from a clearing in the
forest at the end of the runway. One security officer said that as
they approached, all the hair on their bodies (even under their hats)
stood on end, "like therre was a big static charge in the air." They
loaded their M-16s. "We didn't know what we were encountering; and we
knew it was something beyond our realm of experience. We had never
experienced anything like that before. About that time, we decided to
get the...out of there." The armed security police ran off and
encountered about 30 more security police (led by Lt. Col. Halt) in
about a half-dozen vehicles on a nearby road.
Halt and a three man team, including Sgr. "B" ( a USAF security
officer still on active duty) approached the clearing. The Sgt. later
said, "right now, I do believe that UFOs exist. Up to this point, I
had been skeptical. Now I believe there may have been someone else
there."
<< cont >>
--- FMail 0.92
* Origin: * On Topic? What's that? <*> Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:123/26.1)
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(7415) Wed 17 Mar 93 8:44p
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: Sagan & Ufo's - 3/6
St:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/26.1@fidonet.org 26145aeb
@PID: FM 2.02
<< cont from last >>
Larry Warren, a former security officer, has come forward without
anonymity and has withstood a blistering attack by the professional
skeptics on his personal integrity, who claimed he was a drug user or
flat out, a liar. These unsubstantiated charges were later retracted
by the skeptics. Warren maintains that more happened on the second
night that is not included in the report or on the tape. Warren
states, "I was very close...At one point we saw people, or whatever you
want to call them, coming out. There were three of them..they stood
there...actually floated...our base commander was there (Lt. Col.
Gordon Williams)."
Although the USAF originally maintained that "no audiovisual
documentation of the incident exists," a FOIA action unearthed a 20
minute audio tape made by Lt. Col. Halt which describes segments of
events over a seven hour period of this second night. Among routine
recordings of the levels of radioactivity and the other evidence
referred to in the Halt report, the tape describes Lt. Col. Halt's
EYEWITNESS UFO SIGHTING made at the time of the recording. Skeptics
have maintained that Lt. Col. Halt and his men mistakenly sighted the
Orford lighthouse about ten miles away. Although a lighthouse beacon
can be a source of a single light point, there the similarity to the
Halt report and tape ends. Lighthouse beacons do not leave radioactive
"Landing Marks" in the soil. A single beacon is not simultaneously
visible in two different directions (180 degrees apart-north and south)
In fact, at one point, Lt. Col. Halt describes four separate lights at
the same time, that moved about independently of each other then
disappeared.
It is not likely that the beacon would have been shut off in the
middle of the night, just as it is improbable that the Deputy Base
Commander of a highly sensitive nuclear base (and at least a dozen of
his men) could have confused a lighthouse beacon, in a location he was
no doubt familiar with, with the highly unusual lights he describes--
let alone that the confusion would have lasted in excess of one hour.
The lighthouse explanation simply does not stand up under close
scrutiny. When this position collapsed, the skeptics then turned to
challenging the personal integrity of the men who spoke out--and the
discussion got ugly. These men were alleged to be drug users and the
skeptics maintained that these security personnel were, in the words of
one noted skeptic, "hallucinating Keystone Cops." At one point, the
tape records Lt. Col. Halt (excited and breathing rapidly) saying,
"It's (the UFO) moving out...It's moving fast!" Another security
officer remarks, "There's one on the right heading this way too!"
Halt continues, "They're both heading north. Hey! Here! Here...Here
he's coming from the south! He's coming toward us now! WEIRD!...Now we
are observing what appears to be a beam coming down to the ground.
THIS IS UNREAL!" To repeat, this is an authenticated audio tape,
obtained under the FOIA, which has never been retracted by Lt. Col.
(now Brig. General) Halt or any other USAF official.
Any OBJECTIVE review of this evidence indicates that the government
is (or should be) VERY interested in the matter of UFOs, despite its
official position that it discontinued all investigations in 1969.
Indeed, many scientists are convinced that more study of UFOs is
needed.
He conducted the investigation entirely on his own.
On July 9, 1985, Senator Exon wrote a letter stating, "...while
additional information on the subject of Bentwaters AND OTHER
UNEXPLAINED UFO INCIDENTS (emphasis added) may exist, I can find no
evidence of a coverup..." This letter was written significantly
after the lighthouse explanation was first proposed and apparently the
Senator also found the lighthouse description unacceptable, chosing
rather to call the incident an "unexplained UFO incident."
Although Senator Exon has refused further comment on Bentwaters, in
a letter dated August 14, 1985, he stated, "I have put in more time on
this matter than any other case since I have been a U.S. Senator." I
leave it to the reader to judge the importance at least one busy U.S.
Senator felt this matter demanded, to have taken so much time with this
sighting. SOMETHING grabbed his interest.
<< cont >>
--- FMail 0.92
* Origin: * On Topic? What's that? <*> Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:123/26.1)
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(7416) Wed 17 Mar 93 8:45p
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: Sagan & Ufo's - 4/6
St:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/26.1@fidonet.org 26145aec
@PID: FM 2.02
<< cont from last >>
How do we know whether UFOs exist? We don't. What we do know is
that an unusually large number of UFO reports exist, and that some,
such as the Halt report, are indeed EXTRAORDINARY, in the sense
mandated by Dr. Sagan. There are many common points shared by these
reports (e.g. the types of phenomena reported, that the better the
report the harder it is to explain away and that many reports are made
by perfectly normal and sometimes highly trained personnel whose
testimony on any other subject would be accepted in any court of law).
We also know that our government and others continue to study UFOs,
despite their official position that they do not. Many lawsuits have
been filed under the Freedom of Information Act against the FBI, CIA,
DIA, NSA, Air Force, Army, Navy, etc., which have revealed many
previously classified documents confirming that the government takes
the matter VERY seriously and that there are far more such documents
remaining which the government refuses to disclose.
Perhaps the most open government involved in the study of UFOs is
France, although even they recently tightened the security of these
matters. In 1974, M. Robert Galley, the French Minister of Defense,
gave an interview on French National Radio in which he stated that UFOs
are real and that if the public were told the amount and quality of the
evidence (such as radar sightings and fighter gun camera movies) they
would be very disturbed. He also revealed in the interview that the
government was passing UFO information on for evaluation by CNES (the
French NASA). Dr. Claude Poher was in charge of the study there. By
May 1, 1977, the work of Dr. Poher was so impressive that the French
government put it on a much more official basis, gave the project a
substantial grant of funds and created a new division of CNES under
Poher's direction. This division was named GEPAN (which stands for
Group into Unidentified Atmospheric Phenomena).
About one year after the project started, Dr. Pierre Guerin, an
astronomer working for the project wrote, "an intelligence controls the
UFOs, and it is not ours." Later in the the article, Guerin said the
the governments of the earth knew the truth about UFOs (that they came
from an intelligence which coexisted with us on the planet and may
actually control us!) but that they had no idea how to disclose this
information and still maintain world order.
GEPAN marked a new phase of open communication in official policy,
and the project was very cooperative with ufologists, unlike
governmental agencies in the United States. In a document dated
February, 1979, GEPAN outlines how the study operates. There are field
workers, including an early warning team who can be rapidly sent to the
scene of an incident. A team of scientists of various disciplines
studies the information collected in well equipped laboratories.
Psychologists evaluate witnesses. The National Police (Gendarmes) are
to prepare reports of incidents to be passed on to GEPAN.
Of 354 reports received in 1978, 53% involved close encounters, of
which 25% were classified "unexplained" and 34% "potentially unknown
but lacking probative data." GEPAN states that these alarming results
"pose a real question after analysis by our experts." It was at this
time that GEPAN decided that "great vigilance is necessary regarding
the distribution and publication of these studies. We estimate that
the witnesses we have met have really seen the things which they report
to us...the study of the cause of these phenomena is capable of
bringing forth new knowledge." In private, Poher and Guerin were going
even farther, and the French government became worried. A new
director, astronomer Dr. Alain Esterle, was appointed. Less GEPAN
information was released, although Dr. Esterle stated in 1981 that the
work of GEPAN was proving that UFOs were indeed alien.
With the growth of its work and information collected by 1982,
GEPAN had tightened its security measures and a "reorganization" of
GEPAN was instituted. Esterle was replaced by an engineer and Dr.
Guerin released this statement in 1983:
"It is not the scientists, naturally skeptical as they are, who
induced the military and political leaders to refuse to take 'UFO
stories' seriously. It is these authorities themselves who are
concealing from us what they know...and they have put it into the minds
of the scientists to deny the existence of es believes that most
sightings are misidentifications of prosaic objects, he estimates that
1,000 to 10,000 reports from all over the world remain for which no
conventional explanation is possible. He speculates that similar
events have been occurring for centuries. But despite the literal
"mountain" of evidence that has accumulated over the past 40 years of
government interest in UFOs, including the GEPAN program in France, not
one other government is willing to openly admit that there is anything
curious in the UFO phenomena worthy of study, let alone a potential
security problem.
<< cont >>
--- FMail 0.92
* Origin: * On Topic? What's that? <*> Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:123/26.1)
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@PATH: 123/26 19 396/1 13/13 104/1 438 422
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(7417) Wed 17 Mar 93 8:45p
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: Sagan & Ufo's - 5/6
St:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/26.1@fidonet.org 26145aed
@PID: FM 2.02
<< cont from last >>
He cites a remarkable public apathy, a climate of ridicule by the
media and an air of apparent indifference by the world governments.
But, he says, this is only an apparent indifference, as the phenomena
is undoubtedly being studied somewhere in some back rooms.
For example, documents obtained under the FOIA from the CIA, NSA
and other governmental agencies provide undeniable evidence of
continuing official interest in UFOs. Noyes congratulates his former
colleagues at the MOD on their ability to pretend to take no notice of
the stranger incidents reported to them.
Noyes believes that the Bentwaters case in 1980 is one of the most
important UFO cases in history. It was this case that encouraged Noyes
to finally write the UFO book he had long considered. He chose the
fictional format because it permitted him to enter into various
speculations which would not otherwise be possible.
U. S. Senator Barry Goldwater (Arizona) is a retired USAF General,
with TOP SECRET CLEARANCE, who attempted to gain access to a storage
facility alleged to contain dead aliens at Wright-Patterson AFB. He
was refused entry since he did not have, believe it or not, a high
enough security clearance.
On December 3, 1974, Goldwater wrote the following letter:
"...I made an effort to get in the room at Wright-Patter-son Field
where the information was stored and I was denied this request,
understandably."
On March 28, 1975, Senator Goldwater wrote again:
"...The subject of UFOs has interested me for some time. I made an
effort to find out what was in THE BUILDING AT WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR
FORCE BASE WHERE THE INFORMATION IS STORED THAT HAS BEEN COLLECTED BY
THE AIR FORCE, and I was denied this request. IT IS STILL CLASSIFIED
ABOVE TOP SECRET..." (Emphasis Added).
Other prominent Amercans have also gone on record that the UFO
phenomena is worthy of serious study, for example:
1. President Carter asked NASA to explore the possibility of
investigating UFOs.
2. When he was in Congress, President Ford called for Congressional
investigations of UFOs.
3. Astronaut Gordon Cooper said, "I believe that these
extraterrestrial vehicles and their crews are visiting this planet
from other planets."
4. General Nathan Twining, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and
reputed member of MJ-12, wrote a secret memo on September 23,
1947, in which he stated to the Commanding General of the Army Air
Forces on the subject of "Flying Discs":
a. The phenomenon reported is something REAL and not visionary or
fictitious.
b. There are objects probably approximating the shape of a disc,
of such appreciable size as to appear to be as large as a man-
made aircraft.
c. There is a possibility that some of the incidents may be
caused by natural phenomena, such as meteors.
d. The reported operating characteristics such as extreme rates
of climb, maneuverability (particularly in roll), and action
which must be considered EVASIVE when sighted or contacted by
friendly aircraft and radar, lend belief to the possibility
that some of the objects are controlled either manually,
automatically or remotely." (Emphasis in Original).
It is now clear that the U.S. Air Force Project Blue Book was
merely a public relations effort to show something being "done" about
UFOs. It is equally clear that the real effort was, and continues to
be conducted elsewhere.
<< cont from last >>
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* Origin: * On Topic? What's that? <*> Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:123/26.1)
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(7418) Wed 17 Mar 93 8:46p
By: Don Allen
To: All
Re: Sagan & Ufo's - 6/6
St:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@MSGID: 1:123/26.1@fidonet.org 26145aee
@PID: FM 2.02
<< cont from last >>
In 1969, the U.S. Air Force closed it's public UFO data gathering
effort known as "Project Blue Book." Since that time, all inquiries to
the Air force requesting information on UFOs were met with standard
form letters indicating that, since 1969, the Air Force no longer is
involved in UFO investigation and that the reports gathered by Project
Blue Book have been archived and are available elsewhere.
Lawsuits under the Freedom of Information Act have obtained
significant official documentation verifying an on-going uninterrupted
concern with UFO investigations by the Air Force, belying its publicly
stated position on the matter.
A Joint Army Navy Air Force Publication (JANAP 146) requires
reports of any sighting which could be a threat to national security.
UFOs continue to be sighted by military personnel and are reported
under this regulation.
Indeed, important UFO sightings and reports, even before 1969, were
not processed under Project Blue Book, but were and are collected and
investigated elsewhere by the military. An Air Force document dated
October 20, 1969, which proposed termination of Project Blue Book,
states, "Reports of Unidentified Flying Objects which could affect
national security are made in accordance with JANAP 146 or Air Force
Manual 55-11, AND ARE NOT PART OF THE BLUE BOOK SYSTEM (Emphasis
Added)...reports of UFOs which could affect national security should
continue to be handled through standarddeemed to constitute a threat to
national security under JANAP 146, are considered by the regulation as
something different than missles and aircraft.
Moreover, the term "UFO," as used in these regulations, is given
very clear definition. Illustrations in Air Force Intelligence manuals
at least as far back as 1953 represent UFOs as large, disc-shaped craft
with transparent domes and portholes around the edges. A U.S. Navy
publication (OPNAV 94-P-3B), titled "MERINT Radiotelegraph Procedure,"
shows UFOs as a separate class from missles and aircraft. In fact, an
illustration under the UFO heading shows a Saturn-shaped disc.
Obviously, this does not even approach "final proof" of the
existence of UFOs. But it does constitute EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE as
suggested by Dr. Sagan in that it establishes that those responsible in
our government take a serious attitude toward UFOs, despite the public
pronouncements to the contrary. The official documents released under
the FOIA establish an intense governmental interest in UFOs over at
least the past 40 years. These monumental efforts are completely
irreconcilable with the notion that UFOs are nothing more than the
imaginations and misidentifications of a misguided and gullible
populace.
** End of file **
Don
--- FMail 0.92
* Origin: * On Topic? What's that? <*> Fidonet UFO Moderator (1:123/26.1)
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