ParaNet BBS/skeptic
From KB42
ParaNet BBS/skeptic
| File Name: | skeptic.txt |
|---|---|
| Author: | Unknown |
| Date: | Unknown |
| Posting BBS: | Unknown |
| BBS Main Page: | ParaNet Main Page |
| Key Words: | ParaNet, UFO, Ufology |
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ParaNet File Number: 00217
COMPUSERVE CONFERENCE HELD 25-JULY-89 at 9:30PM EDT
GUEST: Jim Speiser
TOPIC: UFOs and the Role of Skepticism
User User ID Nod Area Name
---- ------------- --- ----- -------------------
1 72330,501 CGU Rm 2 John M. Gamble
2 76056,2070 AKO Rm 2 JimV
3 74756,413 GBN Rm 2 Jay H
4 72135,424 PNB Rm 2 Jim S.
5 75006,3640 RIV Rm 2 Tom Monticue
6 72727,2302 DCI Rm 2 Frank
7 76530,500 HVT Rm 2 Karl R. Wolf
(2-4,Jim S.) Thanks for having me. Let me start off by elucidating...
(2-4,Jim S.) my position briefly. After several years of what I...
(2-4,Jim S.) consider soul-searchingly skeptical review of the UFO...
(2-4,Jim S.) evidence, I have come to the conclusion that there is...
(2-4,Jim S.) very definitely something amiss. There is no longer...
(2-4,Jim S.) any doubt in my mind about the following: That SOME UFO...
(2-4,Jim S.) witnesses are reporting genuine events which can...
(2-4,Jim S.) be taken at more-or-less face value; that the heroic...
(2-4,Jim S.) efforts of debunkers to demonstrate otherwise have failed;
(2-4,Jim S.) that, while the ET Hypothesis remains unproven, and in...
(2-4,Jim S.) fact perhaps unlikely, it is nevertheless the LEAST...
(2-4,Jim S.) unlikely among the various choices; and that...
(2-4,Jim S.) the United States Government has knowledge of SOME of...
(2-4,Jim S.) the answers to the UFO question beyond what it has...
(2-4,Jim S.) released through Blue Book and the FOIA. That should...
(2-4,Jim S.) get things off to a good start. GA
(2-6,Frank) I am Chief of the Air Force's Technology Branch at the Pentagon...
(2-6,Frank) and I can assure you that the Air Force, at least, is not...
(2-6,Frank) withholding any information about UFOs which would change...
(2-6,Frank) anybody's mind about their non-existence. GA
(2-4,Jim S.) OK,...
(2-4,Jim S.) Based on what has been happening lately,...
(2-4,Jim S.) I think that's probably a fair assessment. I don't...
(2-4,Jim S.) think this is any longer in the hands of the Air Force,...
(2-4,Jim S.) except perhaps with certain individuals within it...
(2-4,Jim S.) that may have the correct clearance. ...
(2-4,Jim S.) What that clearance is, I haven't a clue. You have to ...
(2-4,Jim S.) understand, I'm as confused about this as anyone. I'm
(2-4,Jim S.) looking for answers myself. It just seems to me that...
(2-4,Jim S.) if the government DOESN'T know much more than we do,...
(2-4,Jim S.) there shouldn't be all these indications that they _DO_. GA
(2-5,Tom M) Jim, let me start by stating my own opinion on this ...
(2-5,Tom M) stated in the saw, "nothing is impossible, but some things
are more likely than others" ...
(2-5,Tom M) and I simply assign UFO's as ET's to a low probability. ...
(2-5,Tom M) but I would like to ask ...
(2-5,Tom M) since so many people have been looking so hard for so long ...
(2-5,Tom M) why do you think it is that more concrete evidence, ...
(2-5,Tom M) ie, something Mr. Klass could not refute ...
(2-5,Tom M) [has not] been found?
(2-4,Jim S.) First, let me clarify one thing...
(2-4,Jim S.) I am not here to push the ET hypothesis. I am here to...
(2-4,Jim S.) push the genuinely anomalous nature of UFOs, in the...
(2-4,Jim S.) belief that their study is a legitimate scientific concern...
(2-4,Jim S.) I hold out the ET hypothesis as one possible solution, the...
(2-4,Jim S.) one with the most far-ranging implications, and therefore...
(2-4,Jim S.) one that must be given extreme consideration before abandonment...
(2-4,Jim S.) but as I stated in my intro, as a skeptic and a believer...
(2-4,Jim S.) in the scientific method, I find it unlikely as well,...
(2-4,Jim S.) just not quite as unlikely as "bolides, Venus and hoaxes"...
(2-4,Jim S.) to answer your question,...
(2-4,Jim S.) its frustrating to go 40 years without the smoking gun, but...
(2-4,Jim S.) how long is a long time in science? How long did we go...
(2-4,Jim S.) before proving the existence of ball lightning, for instance? It...
(2-4,Jim S.) may simply be in the nature of the phenomenon not to leave....
(2-4,Jim S.) behind pieces of itself. And Klass has not been able to refute...
(2-4,Jim S.) everything. GA
(2-1,jmg) Jim, you've said that you consider the ET hypothesis the least unlikely of the
UFO explanations. Could you give examples of what you consider to be in second
and third place for likeliness? GA
(2-4,Jim S.) OK...
(2-4,Jim S.) I'd have to say that running a somewhat close second....
(2-4,Jim S.) would be some kind of government project, but there again....
(2-4,Jim S.) I am aware of, and completely agree with, the arguments against...
(2-4,Jim S.) that hypothesis. We know absolutely zero about prospective ETs,...
(2-4,Jim S.) but we can say some things about the govt and military...
(2-4,Jim S.) with reasonable certitude, and one of them is that they...
(2-4,Jim S.) simply wouldn't test such devices out in the open over...
(2-4,Jim S.) populated areas. If its a mind game by the CIA, its taking ....
(2-4,Jim S.) them an AWFUL long time to finish it. GA
(2-2,JimV) Jim, I am still puzzled why you consider bolides and hoaxes to ...
(2-2,JimV) be 'more unlikely' than ET's ...
(2-2,JimV) What lead to that conclusion??
(2-4,Jim S.) Basically, my having interviewed witnesses and having...
(2-4,Jim S.) read many accounts by highly credible, capable observers...
(2-4,Jim S.) How can "bolides and Venus" explain, for example, accounts...
(2-4,Jim S.) of silver disc-like "craft" maneuvering at high speeds....
(2-4,Jim S.) reported by whole flight crews of Air Force bombers? GA
(2-6,Frank) As a teenager,...
(2-6,Frank) some of my friends and I used to launch balloons made from...
(2-6,Frank) plastic cleaner bags and birthday candles, and then...
(2-6,Frank) watch the evening news to listen to the UFO reports. Some of...
(2-6,Frank) them included speeds of hundreds to 1000's of miles...
(2-6,Frank) an hour, and some even reported faces in the craft. A few...
(2-6,Frank) of these "sightings" still appear in the literature. How can...
(2-6,Frank) one be "scientific" about a field in which all the information...
(2-6,Frank) is anecdotal in nature?
(2-4,Jim S.) First,...
(2-4,Jim S.) we're very aware of that trick, and painfully aware...
(2-4,Jim S.) of how utterly deluded some people can become when...
(2-4,Jim S.) confronted by a sight that they can't immediately categorize...
(2-4,Jim S.) We acknowledge that around 80-90% of sightings are explainable...
(2-4,Jim S.) in prosaic terms. What we're talking about here is a ...
(2-4,Jim S.) significant residuum of sightings that have not been explained...
(2-4,Jim S.) that manage to avoid every effort at explanation, and exhibit...
(2-4,Jim S.) a high degree of strangeness. First, were any of the people...
(2-4,Jim S.) that witnessed your aerial high-jinx astronomers, meteorologists,
(2-4,Jim S.) airline pilots, etc.? Second, did your balloons cavort about on..
(2-4,Jim S.) radar screens? Third, what "literature" do they still appear in?...
(2-4,Jim S.) Most of the things I read these days have accounts of such...
(2-4,Jim S.) anecdotal blunders in them. Fourth, not ALL the information is...
(2-4,Jim S.) anecdotal in nature. I can offer you some snippets of "evidence",...
(2-4,Jim S.) while not proof of any one hypothesis, certainly indicate that...
(2-4,Jim S.) something strange is afoot. GA
(2-5,Tom M) My question is akin to Franks, but with a little variation ...
(2-5,Tom M) I live in the S Cal desert next to a couple of AFBs ...
(2-5,Tom M) and I am constantly encountering Air Force personnel...
(2-5,Tom M) I am also an amateur astronomer, and am somewhat more familiar than most
(2-5,Tom M) with the night sky ..
(2-5,Tom M) and I can relate to you a story of af pilots telling me about "chasing" large
(2-5,Tom M) silver disks when I knew with absolute certainty that they were talking about
(2-5,Tom M) Venus! ...
(2-5,Tom M) my first response was, "Is this some kind of a joke?" ..
(2-5,Tom M) the point is ...
(2-5,Tom M) that regardless of a person`s qualifications ...
(2-5,Tom M) 90% of the public doesn`t know jack-sh*t about the night sky ...
(2-5,Tom M) they only know when something changes drastically, like Venus at max brightness ...
(2-5,Tom M) so I do not put much faith in "reliable witnesses." GA
(2-4,Jim S.) Understood....
(2-4,Jim S.) I have seen Venus look pretty strange myself, here in Arizona...
(2-4,Jim S.) especially. Let me give you two brief UFO accounts, and maybe...
(2-4,Jim S.) you'll see what I'm talking about. The first happened about 3...
(2-4,Jim S.) summers ago, in a town called Wickie-up AZ. Two ladies driving to
(2-4,Jim S.) Vegas at 4:30 AM reported seeing a large, pulsating orange light..
(2-4,Jim S.) suddenly jump off the side of a mountain in the West and begin...
(2-4,Jim S.) pacing their car. When they stopped, it stopped. When they drove,..
(2-4,Jim S.) it kept pace with them. Suddenly, at about 4:45AM it just dipped...
(2-4,Jim S.) below the horizon and never returned. Sounds a mite strange, until...
(2-4,Jim S.) you consult any observatory and find out that that is a perfect...
(2-4,Jim S.) description of Mars. We get calls like this all the time, and once...
(2-4,Jim S.) in a while, like this one, they are played up in the press (for...
(2-4,Jim S.) reasons we're not sure of). The other one happened last March.
(2-4,Jim S.) A man and woman were outside in their back yard at 1AM, when they...
(2-4,Jim S.) looked up and noticed a large object hovering below the ....
(2-4,Jim S.) cloud cover above their heads. At first it was illuminated with...
(2-4,Jim S.) only dull white lights, then it put on a "light show" for them...
(2-4,Jim S.) including flashing green and red in diamond patterns. It was silent...
(2-4,Jim S.) and motionless, and after about 45 seconds it took off to the north....
(2-4,Jim S.) accelerating and disappearing rapidly. No noise was heard. Jupiter,
(2-4,Jim S.) perhaps? GA
(2-2,JimV) Please give us some of uour 'snippets of evidence.' ...
(2-2,JimV) I hope that last story ...
(2-2,JimV) wasn't such an example! GA
(2-4,Jim S.) No...that one's totally anecdotal, I assure you...
(2-4,Jim S.) its only significance to me is that the woman was my wife. ...
(2-4,Jim S.) But of course you can't know how qualified she is....
(2-2,JimV) Did Jim disappear again??
(2-4,Jim S.) I got dropped again....
(2-4,Jim S.) Frank, tell your guys at AF Technology to knock it off! grin ...
(2-4,Jim S.) OK, I have a canned upload on the Hudson Valley case...
(2-4,Jim S.) Exactly five years ago this month a couple in Brewster...
(2-4,Jim S.) New York named Pozzuoli, shot a 2-minute video of what...
(2-4,Jim S.) they claimed was a large object hovering near their...
(2-4,Jim S.) property. The video showed a cluster of white lights...
(2-4,Jim S.) which were clearly seen to be rotating in relation...
(2-4,Jim S.) to an outboard flashing red light. There was absolutely...
(2-4,Jim S.) no deviation in the formation of white lights with...
(2-4,Jim S.) respect to each other. The event took place at night...
(2-4,Jim S.) in wind conditions of 20 knots gusting to 28. In other...
(2-4,Jim S.) words, if these lights were separate aircraft, they...
(2-4,Jim S.) were being flown by pilots worthy of the Blue Angels.
(2-4,Jim S.) The UFO was witnessed by about a dozen other people,...
(2-4,Jim S.) and a few nights later, a still photo of the same formation...
(2-4,Jim S.) of lights was taken in a town a hundred miles north. (Side...
(2-4,Jim S.) note: at a UFO conference in 1986, I asked Bob Sheaffer....
(2-4,Jim S.) what besides an alien corpse would he accept as solid evidence...
(2-4,Jim S.) for UFO reality. His reply was "Multiple independent photos...
(2-4,Jim S.) of the same anomalous object.") Amidst speculation that the...
(2-4,Jim S.) object was a hoax by some mischievous ultralight flyers, the...
(2-4,Jim S.) Pozzuolis later shot a video of an actual formation of planes...
(2-4,Jim S.) at night, who indeed were trying to scam the locals. The...
(2-4,Jim S.) difference in the two videos is conclusive. Analysis by Al Hibbs...
(2-4,Jim S.) of JPL (and CSICOP!) and later by JPL director Lew Allen produced...
(2-4,Jim S.) the opinion that the lights were attached to a solid object. GA
(2-5,Tom M) Jim,
(2-5,Tom M) the author of your report ...
(2-5,Tom M) concludes that the lights were attached to a solid object ...
(2-5,Tom M) but one of the problems with photographing objects in the sky ...
(2-5,Tom M) is that no reference point is available ...
(2-5,Tom M) did anybody make any conclusions about the size or any other aspect of the
(2-5,Tom M) geometry of the object? If so, how was this made? ...
(2-5,Tom M) if not, isn`t it a leap of imagination to conclude ..
(2-5,Tom M) although only implied ...
(2-5,Tom M) that the "solid object" was a space craft piloted by et`s? GA
(2-4,Jim S.) Yes, it is so agreed....
(2-4,Jim S.) which is why I do NOT conclude thus...
(2-4,Jim S.) infer all you want, I maintain that I am NOT pushing the ET...
(2-4,Jim S.) hypothesis. All I'm saying is that science is supposed to try...
(2-4,Jim S.) to settle questions about the unknown. We have an unknown,...
(2-4,Jim S.) let's try and figure it out. As to dimensions, no conclusions...
(2-4,Jim S.) are possible due to the quality of the video, however, it is...
(2-4,Jim S.) stated that the object passed behind a fir tree in the video....
(2-4,Jim S.) I've seen the video, and the object passes behind SOMETHING, but...
(2-4,Jim S.) whether or not its a fir tree, I can't say for sure. If it is,..
(2-4,Jim S.) the object is quite large. GA
(Jay H) Have you seen photos of the terrain in daylight?
(2-4,Jim S.) Yes, and there are some fairly tall fir trees, I would guess,
(2-4,Jim S.) on the order of 40 to 50 feet tall. GA
(2-5,Tom M) Jim,
(2-5,Tom M) you stated that you "(are) not pushing the ET hypothesis..." ...
(2-5,Tom M) but you stated earlier that the ET's-as-pilots hypothesis ...
(2-5,Tom M) is the most likely of all the unlikely posibilities. Do I read you straight ..
(2-5,Tom M) on that? These seem to me to be countradictary. Perhaps you can clarify ..
(2-5,Tom M) your position a little better. GA
(2-4,Jim S.) OK...
(2-4,Jim S.) I am not here to try to convince you of it....
(2-4,Jim S.) I am here to bat around some of the things that lead...
(2-4,Jim S.) me to the conclusion that we have a bona fide mystery,...
(2-4,Jim S.) my own personal feeling, arrived at (and not QUITE "arrived at",...
(2-4,Jim S.) mind you), after much deliberation on the OTHER possibilities, is...
(2-4,Jim S.) that the ET hypothesis should be given due consideration. But....
(2-4,Jim S.) right now, in the lions den, all I really want to accomplish is...
(2-4,Jim S.) to get some of you scratching your heads and saying, "hmmm....
(2-4,Jim S.) I STILL don't believe in little green men, but that is damned odd" ....
(2-4,Jim S.) in the hopes that some of you will take the time to investigate...
(2-4,Jim S.) further and perhaps be able to either ELIMINATE the ET theory
(2-4,Jim S.) or (gasp) find some way of proving it. GA
(2-5,Tom M) Jim,
(2-5,Tom M) I can`t speak for all of us here ...
(2-5,Tom M) however, I hope that you have not made the mistake ...
(2-5,Tom M) of thinking that we are all completely ignorant of the pro-ufo arguments ....
(2-5,Tom M) although I have not put as much of my personal resources into this subject as
(2-5,Tom M) you have, I have spent much time reading the literature, and even occasionally
(2-5,Tom M) pursuing wild stories. ...
(2-5,Tom M) the bigger difference between us is ...
(2-5,Tom M) that I have seen so much self delusion, and down right deceit in the UFO
(2-5,Tom M) movement, that it has soured me to the whole shootin' match. ...
(2-5,Tom M) because of this, I maintain that, historically, it is more probable that the ...
(2-5,Tom M) individual stories are not accurate, and do not describe true ufo's. ...
(2-5,Tom M) and because of that, evidence for ufo's must be, in Klass's words, ...
(2-5,Tom M) extraordinary evidence to support extraordinary claims. What you have
(2-5,Tom M) described this evenging does not vary much from the run-of-the-mill ufo ..
(2-5,Tom M) story. I guess this isn't really a question, just a comment. Thanks.
(2-5,Tom M) ga
(2-4,Jim S.) We're really not that far apart, Tom...
(2-4,Jim S.) I am soured on 90% of the field....
(2-4,Jim S.) but while I fully agree that "extraordinary claims demand..."
(2-4,Jim S.) extraordinary evidence," I also maintain that...
(2-4,Jim S.) extraordinary phenomena require extraordinary inquiry. ...
(2-4,Jim S.) When you say that its more probable that individual stories...
(2-4,Jim S.) are not accurate, you are ignoring the many multiple witness...
(2-4,Jim S.) sightings, radar contacts, etc. And I do not agree that...
(2-4,Jim S.) such cases as the Hudson Valley object are "run-of-the-mill"...
(2-4,Jim S.) whatever that is. But, as I said in my message,...
(2-4,Jim S.) I consider myself a skeptic, and what I really came here for...
(2-4,Jim S.) is some feedback, such as what you've given me, Tom, but more,...
(2-4,Jim S.) some suggestions on how skeptics and UFO-advocates can possibly...
(2-4,Jim S.) work together to solve some of the specific cases. I think many...
(2-4,Jim S.) people even on the skeptical side are getting weary of "bolides and...
(2-4,Jim S.) Venus" and we need some new approaches. GA
(2-6,Frank) One of the sighters of my balloons was a pilot, and...
(2-6,Frank) 20 years in the AF has taught me that pilots are very poor...
(2-6,Frank) observers. The only proof that the ET hypothesis is false...
(2-6,Frank) would be proof that UFOs are something else. ...
(2-6,Frank) Otherwise, one could always say that there is at least one unsolved...
(2-6,Frank) case which could be of ET origin. Since there probably isn't...
(2-6,Frank) anything to UFOs except people seeing things they can't...
(2-6,Frank) explain, there will never be proof that UFOs are not of...
(2-6,Frank) ET origin. The inability to explain an event does not...
(2-6,Frank) prove the validity of the sighting. GA
(2-4,Jim S.) And so, the field is not worthy of serious inquiry? GA
(2-5,Tom M) I am going to have to side with Jim S on that question ...
(2-5,Tom M) you are trying to proove a negative, Frank. ...
(2-5,Tom M) describing one event does not describe the entire question. You can't
(2-5,Tom M) extrapolate to the known universe from a single data point. ...
(2-5,Tom M) but my question was to Jim ...
(2-5,Tom M) you wanted some suggestions on how skeptics and ufo investigators could ..
(2-5,Tom M) work together. Dropping this in our laps on a moments notice doesn't do any good ...
(2-5,Tom M) so what were your thoughts on that? What are your suggestions? GA
(2-4,Jim S.) OK...
(2-4,Jim S.) a while ago I proposed Project AZURE, the Arizona...
(2-4,Jim S.) UFO Research Cooperative. It would involve a body made up of...
(2-4,Jim S.) members of the Phoenix and Tucson Skeptics, and an equal number of...
(2-4,Jim S.) proponents. Together they would promulgate investigative...
(2-4,Jim S.) techniques and methodologies, parameters for study, and...
(2-4,Jim S.) mutually agree on criteria for acceptance or dismissal of cases...
(2-4,Jim S.) They would investigate individual reports as a team, and...
(2-4,Jim S.) try to reach some mutual conclusions on the data. Failing that,...
(2-4,Jim S.) the cross-exposure could only be beneficial. Disbeleivers would...
(2-4,Jim S.) see what it is we are talking about when we say, "All these people...
(2-4,Jim S.) CAN'T be myopic/nuts/deluded." And us fuzz-headed omni-credulous...
(2-4,Jim S.) flying saucer freaks could see how scientific inquiry is properly...
(2-4,Jim S.) performed from a skeptic's viewpoint. GA
(2-5,Tom M) Are you proposing ...
(2-5,Tom M) similar investigations via modem? GA
(2-4,Jim S.) Well, of course, something like that exists,...
(2-4,Jim S.) in fact I started it, the ParaNet network. It leans towards...
(2-4,Jim S.) believership, but I've made every effort to make skeptics...
(2-4,Jim S.) feel at home there. Certainly ParaNet has some parameters that...
(2-4,Jim S.) it would like to see investigators use, but no, I had ...
(2-4,Jim S.) in mind something in the real world, but perhaps using modems...
(2-4,Jim S.) to set the groundrules. GA
(2-6,Frank) I was not trying to prove a negative,...
(2-6,Frank) I was merely pointing out the impossibility of doing so...
(2-6,Frank) Jim S. said he wanted serious study to either eliminate the...
(2-6,Frank) ET hypothesis, or to prove it. My point is that no amount of...
(2-6,Frank) study can eliminate it, since one would have to prove that...
(2-6,Frank) every sighting (and every unseen UFO) was of terrestrial ...
(2-6,Frank) origin. You can't prove that Santa Claus does not exist,...
(2-6,Frank) because as long as there may be one kid who gets toys from...
(2-6,Frank) him, there is the possibility that he exists. You can never...
(2-6,Frank) disprove the ET hypothesis, no matter how many cases you ...
(2-6,Frank) investigate and debunk. GA
(2-5,Tom M) my apologies for misunderstanding your point. ga
(2-4,Jim S.) I didn't mean to put it in such binary terms. And I think
that's...
(Jay H.)Jim... What do you feel is a more constructive approach to this.
What are we looking for?... What would be the structrue or goals of
research?.
(2-4,Jim S.) For one thing, contrary to Frank's thoughts, I'm NOT necessarily
(2-4,Jim S.) holding out much hope for proof one way or the other, though twould...
(2-4,Jim S.) be nice. I'm basically looking for help in deciding whether....
(2-4,Jim S.) UFOs are a legitimate concern of science; I'm looking for skeptics....
(2-4,Jim S.) to acknowledge, after giving the data a real good look-see, that...
(2-4,Jim S.) there is indeed something here worth pursuing. The ultimate goal, of
(2-4,Jim S.) course would be proof, but within that, we can acknowledge that the...
(2-4,Jim S.) positive proof may not be forthcoming, and that of course we can't...
(2-4,Jim S.) prove a negative. GA
(Jay H.) Taking [the] UFO acronym literally, we are observing some phenomenon
whether psychological, perceptual, physical or even extra-
terrestrial... Since the sightings persist, I can suggest that they
are valid basis for investigation regardless of the point of view.ga
(2-4,Jim S.) OK, that's a start. My point is,...
(2-4,Jim S.) its possible to research an anomaly, come up with more questions...
(2-4,Jim S.) than answers (as we have done) and still remain a skeptic. You wouldn't
(2-4,Jim S.) be tarnishing your reputations any by saying simply, "we don't know...
(2-4,Jim S.) we suspect its prosaic, but there do seem to be significant indi-
(2-4,Jim S.) cations that its not." That DOES NOT equate to validation of the ET
(2-4,Jim S.) Hypothesis. GA
(2-5,Tom M) I think a lot of what you are proposing already exists ...
(2-5,Tom M) Phil Klass does an excellent job of investigation other explainations for ufo ..
(2-5,Tom M) stories, and even though, there have been times ...
(2-5,Tom M) when I've said, "I dunno, Phil, that's stretching things a bit." ....
(2-5,Tom M) but, certainly, there isn't anyone here who ABSOLUTELY rejects the ET question?
(2-5,Tom M) Can we take a poll? GA
(Jay H.) I don't believe, but it would be interesting!!!!ga
(2-6,Frank) I absolutely reject the notion that there is any evidence in the
public domain.
(2-4,Jim S.) Let me try another poll...
(2-4,Jim S.) how many of you have seen the Hudson Valley videotape I..
(2-4,Jim S.) mentioned earlier? GA
(2-5,Tom M) Guess not.
(2-4,Jim S.) I take it then that none of you have seen it? GA
(Jay H.) no.
(2-6,Frank) Correct.
(2-4,Jim S.) Have any of you read "Night Siege"? GA
(Jay H.) no
(2-6,Frank) No.
(2-5,Tom M) no
(2-4,Jim S.) I'm not berating you for not being familiar...
(2-4,Jim S.) with the evidence (in fact its not surprising, due to...
(2-4,Jim S.) the shoddy press coverage it received). But it stands as...
(2-4,Jim S.) one of our best pieces of evidence, and it should be...
(2-4,Jim S.) viewed, along with the accompanying literature and investigation..
(2-4,Jim S.) before making any statements about "absolute rejection." GA
(2-6,Frank) I'd like to make a couple of comments...
(2-6,Frank) It is not just in my thoughts that Jim S. is seeking...
(2-6,Frank) proof. He said (excuse me, typed):
(2-6,Frank) in the hopes that some of you will take the time to investigate...
(2-6,Frank) (2-4,Jim S.) further and perhaps be able to either ELIMINATE the ET theory
(2-6,Frank) (2-4,Jim S.) or (gasp) find some way of proving it....
(2-6,Frank) Also, the spelling of UFO includes "flying object"...
(2-6,Frank) and therefore rules out entirely psychological phenomena...
(2-6,Frank) The point is, why should we spend serious study on...
(2-6,Frank) something for which there is no serious evidence? Why...
(2-6,Frank) not study witchcraft (which has been seen and believed...
(2-6,Frank) by more people than have sighted UFOs? There has to be some...
(2-6,Frank) method of apportioning limited scientific resources, and it...
(2-6,Frank) should include studying those areas which are most promising. GA
(2-4,Jim S.) I really have no reply for that, since I have already acknowledged..
(2-4,Jim S.) that I am seeking proof, but will settle for some cooperation in the...
(2-4,Jim S.) search, and since I've already stated that I believe that there is...
(2-4,Jim S.) some serious evidence which is yet to be fully examined. GA
(2-5,Tom M) I'm not sure of the best way to state this, so please bear with me ...
(2-5,Tom M) in Mass., there is a radio telescope conduction Project Sentinel ...
(2-5,Tom M) in the hopes of finding radio messages from intelligent sources beyond our
(2-5,Tom M) solar system. ...
(2-5,Tom M) even though I doubt that they will ever find positive proof, ...
(2-5,Tom M) I send money to them every year. ...
(2-5,Tom M) I think that the question of studying the evidence for ET's goes a little ..
(2-5,Tom M) beyond what is considered worthy of study. ...
(2-5,Tom M) and the research into ufo's is entirely privately funded. So I don't think
(2-5,Tom M) we have any complaints about wasting scientific resources. However, I can
(2-5,Tom M) imagine that the AF is getting awfully tired of answering questions from
(2-5,Tom M) private researchers who aren't doing any cross referencing. ...
(2-5,Tom M) but my original question remains: I don't think anybody here absolutely rejects
(2-5,Tom M) a priori the idea of ET's piloting space craft. But unless better ...
(2-5,Tom M) evidence is forth coming, I am willing to let other people do the investigations.
(2-5,Tom M) Other than that, my budgeted time is more than over...
(2-5,Tom M) and must bid good evening to all.
(2-4,Jim S.) Thank you, Tom...
(2-4,Jim S.) I think its interesting to note that Carl Sagan...
(2-4,Jim S.) puts a figure of about $60 million on an effective SETI project,...
(2-4,Jim S.) whereas last year the Fund for UFO Research succeeded in raising...
(2-4,Jim S.) about $20,000. Thanks for coming. GA
(2-7,Mark E. Meyer) When did the Hudson Valley event take place? ga
(2-4,Jim S.) It was a wave that began in late 1983, and began to peter out...
(2-4,Jim S.) about 1986 or so. Altogether there were 9000 reports up to...
(2-4,Jim S.) 1986, although probably a large percentage of them were...
(2-4,Jim S.) of the pilots. They did succeed in fooling some people, but you...
(2-4,Jim S.) can't fool a videotape - not easily, anyway. GA
(2-6,Frank) When I was 12, I awoke one morning...
(2-6,Frank) to find a 12-inch man, dressed in a tuxedo, standing...
(2-6,Frank) on my chest of drawers. I blinked hard, looked again,...
(2-6,Frank) and he was still there. I was a very good observer at the time...
(2-6,Frank) and know what I saw. No one has been able to disprove his ...
(2-6,Frank) existence, nor could they, lacking all the details. I am...
(2-6,Frank) seeking a large federal grant to continue my research into...
(2-6,Frank) the little people, and hope to establish a base somewhere...
(2-6,Frank) where there is good skiing. Any donations? GA
(2-4,Jim S.) And from what is obviously a hypnopompic hallucination, we..
(2-4,Jim S.) are to deduce that such observers as astronomer Clyde Tombaugh,
(2-4,Jim S.) meteorologists, etc., are all similarly deluded, and deserving of..
(2-4,Jim S.) the derision you seem happy to dish out. Correct? GA
(2-6,Frank) It is interesting...
(2-6,Frank) that it is "obviously a hupnopompic hallucination," to you...
(2-6,Frank) but I know what the physical cause was, and it was not...
(2-6,Frank) a hallucination. It was a real physical event. It just...
(2-6,Frank) wasn't a real man. The point is that things can seem...
(2-6,Frank) very real, and we tend to put things into perspective we...
(2-6,Frank) can understand, especially when the environment is...
(2-6,Frank) unfamiliar. My "man" was caused by a trick of the light...
(2-6,Frank) coming through the drapes. I moved a few inches to the ...
(2-6,Frank) side, and he disappeared. When I moved back, he was there. ...
(2-6,Frank) Trained meterologists, pilots, etc, can be just as easily fooled....
(2-6,Frank) I don't believe that these people are falsifying anything,...
(2-6,Frank) they just have misinterpreted what they saw. And ...
(2-6,Frank) even I don't rule out the ET hypothesis. I just...
(2-6,Frank) maintain that I haven't seen sufficient evidence...
(2-6,Frank) to embrace it. That doesn't mean that tomorrow, we...
(2-6,Frank) won't see a fleet of metalic objects over the Pentagon,...
(2-6,Frank) broadcasting a message to refrain from war. There's...
(2-6,Frank) just no scientific evidence yet. GA
(2-4,Jim S.) I'm not disputing what you say, Frank....
(2-4,Jim S.) but "tricks of light", and other perception problems seems like ...
(2-4,Jim S.) a nice general way of covering the issue, but when you get....
(2-4,Jim S.) down to specific cases, I believe that in many of them scientific...
(2-4,Jim S.) inquiry CAN eliminate them -- and again, I don't completely...
(2-4,Jim S.) rule out the possibility that they ARE all prosaic....
(2-4,Jim S.) but get down to specifics some time, read a case file,...
(2-4,Jim S.) try to come up with a prosaic explanation, see if it works....
(2-4,Jim S.) if it doesn't fit, be honest with yourself and try something else...
(2-4,Jim S.) this is the process I went through when I started out in this...
(2-4,Jim S.) field. At that time, I hadn't seen any convincing evidence either....
(2-4,Jim S.) and generally maintained your attitude about it. But I...
(2-4,Jim S.) chose to look further, to peel away all the crap and get...
(2-4,Jim S.) at the goodies. I think there's something there, something..
(2-4,Jim S.) you may have missed. But we won't know until you've familiarized...
(2-4,Jim S.) yourself with some of the specifics. GA
(2-6,Frank) I confess I stopped reading UFO literature...
(2-6,Frank) when I read "UFOs Explained." What is the pro-UFO community's...
(2-6,Frank) view of the "incident at Exeter" and the Pascagoola sightings? GA
(2-4,Jim S.) As with all sightings, mixed. Exeter is considered a TRUFO by...
(2-4,Jim S.) most, since its very hard to see how Jupiter could be seen through...
(2-4,Jim S.) thick trees. Pascagoula is another matter, I think its a little...
(2-4,Jim S.) less accepted, if only because it doesn't fit in with the "classic"
(2-4,Jim S.) abductions too well. I tend to reject Pascagoula myself, having met...
(2-4,Jim S.) one of the participants and judged him to be in it for questionable...
(2-4,Jim S.) reasons. I should also say that my real reading in UFOs BEGAN with...
(2-4,Jim S.) "UFOs: The Public Deceived." It was because some of Klass'
(2-4,Jim S.) explanations struck me as highly dubious that I began looking...
(2-4,Jim S.) further into the matter. GA
(2-6,Frank) The Pascagoula contactee...
(2-6,Frank) failed a lie detector test, and subsequently confessed that...
(2-6,Frank) he had gotten drunk, been late for work again, and...
(2-6,Frank) made the whole thing up. It's in the police blotter...
(2-6,Frank) (I lived in Boloxi at the time)...
(2-6,Frank) Yet many folks claim that incident to be a landmark sighting...
(2-6,Frank) proving the existence of UFOs. The Exeter sighting read like...
(2-6,Frank) a Freudian fantasy, and the psychologist who interviewed...
(2-6,Frank) the couple explained the whole thing in terms of the stress...
(2-6,Frank) the interracial marriage was causing. The aliens poked a needle...
(2-6,Frank) into her belly button to see if she was pregnant. The notion...
(2-6,Frank) of carrying a black man's baby concerned the all-white girl,...
(2-6,Frank) and the Freudian association of the belly button with pregnancy...
(2-6,Frank) came through. Yet this is also a long pole in the UFO tent....
(2-6,Frank) I'm not convinced. GA
(2-4,Jim S.) You were thinking of "The Interrupted Journey," The Exeter incident...
(2-4,Jim S.) is something different....
(2-4,Jim S.) but you're right, the Hill Case IS considered a landmark....
(2-4,Jim S.) I don't necessarily accept (or reject) the psychiatrists' opinion...
(2-4,Jim S.) anyone can come up with internal causes for anecdotal events.....
(2-4,Jim S.) I find it hard to beleive that Barney absorbed a complete description...
(2-4,Jim S.) of the aliens solely from Betty's dreams. As to Pascagoula, I hadn't
(2-4,Jim S.) remembered the confession, was it in Klass' book? And I don't accept...
(2-4,Jim S.) lie detectors as evidence of anything, surprised that you do. GA
(2-6,Frank) I don't accept
(2-6,Frank) lie detectors either, but...
(2-6,Frank) the contactee obviously did. Lie detectors are 50% accurate - not good....
(2-6,Frank) But the confession was convincing. I may have mixed the names ...
(2-6,Frank) of the incidents - been a long time since I read them. GA
(Jay H.) I have seenan interesting demonstration concerning Hypnotic
regression. In this example, a subject described her nights
sleep to an investigator on film and audio tape, specifying that
she had slept soundly after going to bed until morning under hypnosis
(and film) the investigator discussed a couple of possible loud
noises like firecrackers or gunshots. After awakening she
specifically remembered wakening from loud noises and going to the
window and looking out.When the audio tape was replayed she could not
accept her own account. She couldn't believe she had 'forgotten' about
the noises. Even investigations by a sincere investigator, if his
belief is strong, seem to be able to affect subjects'accounts. It
often seems that the accounts given by subjects match up pretty..
closely with accounts of others by the same investigator.ga
(2-6,Frank) This is great, but I have to get up early. Good night, all.
(2-4,Jim S.) Gnite, Frank, its been fun. And revealing.
(2-4,Jim S.) Jay, any discussion of hypnotic regression as it
(2-4,Jim S.) relates to abductions has to consider the fact that
(2-4,Jim S.) 30% of all abduction accounts are recalled WITHOUT hypnosis.
(2-4,Jim S.) Taking this a step further, it then becomes somewhat possible
(2-4,Jim S.) to compare hypnotic and non-hypnotic cases to see if there
(2-4,Jim S.) is any major influence on the part of the hypnotist.
(2-4,Jim S.) Such a study has been done by a noted folklorist by the name
(2-4,Jim S.) of Dr. Thomas E. Bullard, in a mammoth 600 page opus. His
(2-4,Jim S.) research shows that there is not much evidence to support
(2-4,Jim S.) the contention that individual regressionists have an
(2-4,Jim S.) influence on differences between accounts, nor does
(2-4,Jim S.) hypnosis seem to be a factor in general. GA
(2-7,Mark E. Meyer) Jim, you earlier mentioned a book called
(2-7,Mark E. Meyer) "Night Siege". What's that about? GA
(2-2,Jim S.) Its about the Hudson Valley Case. Available from Ballantine...
(2-2,Jim S.) highly recommend it. GA
(2-7,Mark E. Meyer) Jim,Do you have the author's name? ga
(2-2,Jim S.) Phil Imbrogno, Robert Pratt, and J. Allen Hynek. I think it...
(2-2,Jim S.) may be listed with Hynek first, although he's late of this earth.
(Jay H.) Jim I'm sure you know there is much foolishness in the UFO
business... but I expect you've sorted through a lot...what do you
think are the most serious books/publications?ga
(2-2,Jim S.) (Oy, is there foolishness!)
(2-2,Jim S.) Best book for skeptics is "Uninvited Guests" by Richard Hall, Aurora, 1987...
(2-2,Jim S.) make that 88..
(2-2,Jim S.) Hall is a science writer who does not suffer tomfoolery gladly...
(2-2,Jim S.) and in fact has resigned MUFON over the Gulf Breeze affair and...
(2-2,Jim S.) various other nuttiness...
(2-2,Jim S.) Best publication, and the best overall group, is...
(2-2,Jim S.) Citizens Against UFO Secrecy and their quarterly JUST CAUSE. GA
(Jay H.) thx It/s running late here in the east, perhaps it's time to wind down..ga
(2-2,Jim S.) I've enjoyed it. I like...
(2-2,Jim S.) debates of this sort, because it...
(2-2,Jim S.) hones my polemical instincts, and because I really and truly....
(2-2,Jim S.) am interested in the truth, even if its that UFOs are all...
(2-2,Jim S.) swamp gas. GA
(Jay H.) glad to have you...please come by again on our normal conferences.
(2-7,Mark E. Meyer) It's been interesting, Jim. And I'm glad to say...
(2-7,Mark E. Meyer) (never mind)
(2-2,Jim S.) OK, I'm glad to say never mind, too.
Off at 00:26 EDT 26-Jul-89
Connect time = 3:06
in the truth, even if its that UFOs are all...
(2-2,Jim S.) swamp gas. GA
(Jay H.) glad to have you...please come by again on our normal conferences.
(2-7,Mark E. Meyer) It's been interesting, Jim. And I'm glad to say... (2-7,Mark E. Meyer) (never mind)
(2-2,Jim S.) OK, I'm glad to say never mind, too.
Off at 00:26 EDT 26-Jul-89
Connect time = 3:06
